quote:

Originally posted by Mr. Dark:
WEll, that is one view. It's not that Obama wants to make us better people, he wants government money to make us better people. That is my problem. When you take my money and give it to others, that is not charity. I tithe to my church, I contribute to educational funds, and I raised four kids and helped with others. I don't need government to come in and take my money and then tell me what to do with it.
Again, when government takes your money, it is not charity, and it does not build character. Government takes your money "at the point of a gun". I work hard for my education, and for what I have. I should have the right to determine how that money is used. I'm no fanatic. There are valuable things that government can do, but when it takes money from me at the threat of prison, it is not charitable.

And that's why I'm a Libertarian!

quote:

Originally posted by Mr. Dark:
WEll, that is one view. It's not that Obama wants to make us better people, he wants government money to make us better people. That is my problem. When you take my money and give it to others, that is not charity. I tithe to my church, I contribute to educational funds, and I raised four kids and helped with others. I don't need government to come in and take my money and then tell me what to do with it.
Again, when government takes your money, it is not charity, and it does not build character. Government takes your money "at the point of a gun". I work hard for my education, and for what I have. I should have the right to determine how that money is used. I'm no fanatic. There are valuable things that government can do, but when it takes money from me at the threat of prison, it is not charitable.

I cannot buy the Republican line that the Democrats are taxing more and redistributing it to others. Have you taken a look at the national debt under Bush's two administrations? Your future wealth has already been redistributed and you will be paying for it a long time. Under Clinton there was a surplus and no emergency such as now enveloping our economy.

Note: This is from a guy who voted for Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan. I am a fiscal conservative, but a realist who believes that the pendulum has swung too far to the right, the country was high jacked by Christian fanatics who see everything through the Bible and wait for the End Times to begin. Read Blackwater by Jeremy Scahill if you want the skinny on what has really been going on in the last 8 years under Bush. Blackwater resembles the Knights Templar of the middle ages and carries an almost religious fervor in all their planning and involvement in the business of the country, all for enormous profits. Blackwater is a real private army.

This calling of Obama a Socialist is just the new "N" word, used so they don't have to use the real "N" word. George Bush is more of a socialist, judged by his approvals of the rescue bailout plans, than Obama will ever be. My friends, they have nationalized the banks; that is socialism. McCain is a rich person, who came from money, has married into further wealth and will always support the big business interests that got us into this mess. On one hand he says he supported Bush 90% of the time and then he says he is not Bush? Who is McCain? Joe the Plumber couldn't get a loan from the Republicans if he tried, not a big enough fish to interest them. He likely will be much better off under the Obama tax plan.

They have used these tactics for the last 8 years and they are doing it again in this election. They have no ideas, only slogans and a subterfuge of hate and mud slinging to distract a voter from positive ideas for a real change in the country. It won't be a 100% all good, but I think Obama will surprise a lot of us as he tries to move the country away from greed and self interest, establishes a real alternative energy policy that will foster non-fossil fuels, and reminds us that there are other values that also matter, like fairness, empathy and providing opportunity for the bottom half of the economic strata to rise up and enjoy the American Dream again. You, who think you are in the middle class - think again, there is no middle class today, only the very rich and the rest of us.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: patrask,

quote:

providing opportunity for the bottom half of the economic strata to rise up and enjoy the American Dream again

"Taxes" is a good word!

I have worked continually since the age of 10. I started by picking corn from the field and selling it on hot summer days alongside an old, country road. I sorted a million glass bottles in a EA Poe-ish cellar. I painted old barns, cut endless lawns covered with dandelions, put on roofs many stories up, delivered groceries into the homes of an old steam engine railroad conductor, a totally blind-tinkerer, a distinguished world-traveller with a thousand clicking clocks on every wall, and countless old ladies perfumed in their old age. I clerked all alone late nights as a teenager, and never once had someone pull something over on me.

I worked all through hs and college, paid my own bills for school and second-hand cars. As a parent I hope to enstill these same ethics in our sons. My dream, rather than the "American Dream" (what exactly is that!?), was to teach young people to be literate and independent thinkers. I still follow this every day!

Education is available to all Americans. None of my grandparents spoke English. Yet, they passed a "secret" on to their chidren. (Please be careful not to let this secret out ~ "Learn and work!") Our sons have begun to understand the family ethic.

With a hs education, my dad was the smartest man I have ever known, not with certificates on the wall, but in life and knowledge of people and what you can achieve when you earn it! Now, I am involved with instruction, reading, and papers 7:30am to midnight, typically. Passion...maybe! Responsible...definitely!

We gladly and thankfully do all we can for our community, school, church, neighborhoods, and immediate and extended families. So, now you are telling me, as Old Boxer stated throughout Orwell's Animal Farm, "I will work harder!"?

Obama WILL raise taxes. He has repeatedly said he will. Bush and his administration overspent and should have used the budget veto against Congress FAR more often. No argument there. Obama said he wants to "spread the wealth around". I have news for him. It is not his wealth to spread around. And I'm sick and tired of people saying that people who oppose Obama are racist. I strongly disagree with him on policy, tax, foreign trade, the war, the military (in spite of his recent pretended concern for the military), and his radically extreme views on abortion. None of these positions have anything to do with race. So can we please stop implying that everyone who opposes Obama or his socialist leanings is really, secretly, inwardly thinking the N word. Calling me a racist is really vile.

quote:

Originally posted by fjp451:
I have worked continually since the age of 10.

Wonderful! Sounds like you and Barack came up in much the same way - taking advantage of every opportunity to make something of yourself.

Poe-ish is a good word.

Tinkerer is a good word.

Good job! Truly a great story.

My family and I paid our way. What has BHO been doing for the past 20 yrs???
Working on his rhetoric?!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFC9jv9jfoA

Mr. Dark, I concur!! (Who always seems to be bringing this into the discussion, btw?)

This message has been edited. Last edited by: fjp451,

quote:

Originally posted by fjp451:
My family and I paid our way. What has BHO been doing for the past 20 yrs???
Working on his rhetoric?!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFC9jv9jfoA

Mr. Dark, I concur!! (Who always seems to be bringing this into the discussion, btw?)

Why on earth is that fraudulent "plumber" getting so much airtime?

quote:

Originally posted by Nico:
Why on earth is that fraudulent "plumber" getting so much airtime?

See, here we go! He is NOT fraudulent. It is common practice, when you do not have a full blown license, to work under the umbrella of someone who does. Hair beauticians in salons work under umbrellas; physical therapists can work under umbrellas of a licensed doctor. In these cases the person working under the umbrella does it for a variety of reasons: insurance, or they are still working for their full blown license credentials whereby, as in a plumber, they are not a journeyman. Yet. Usually, but not always, when you work under an umbrella, your wages are less. But as a full timer, you are often covered by the insurance of your employer.

Come up with another word than "fraudulent".

I was referring to the fraudulent claim that he would be making 250k+ in the near future.

And the fact that he isn't licensed.

Thanks, patrask! I needed a laugh!
Here's one for you:

I'm voting Democrat because I love the fact that I can now marry whatever I want. I've decided to marry my horse.

I'm voting Democrat because I believe oil companies' profits of 4% on a gallon of gas are obscene, but the government taxing the same gallon of gas at 15% isn't.

I'm voting Democrat because I believe the government will do a better job of spending the money I earn than I would.

I'm voting Democrat because freedom of speech is fine as long as nobody is offended by it.

I'm voting Democrat because when we pull out of Iraq, I trust that the bad guys will stop what they're doing because they now think we're good people.

I'm voting Democrat because I'm way too irresponsible to own a gun, and I know that my local police are all I need to protect me from murderers and thieves.

I'm voting Democrat because I believe that people who can't tell us if it will rain on Friday CAN tell us that the polar ice caps will melt away in 10 years if I don't start driving a Prius.

I'm voting Democrat because I'm not concerned about the slaughter of babies so long as we keep death row inmates alive.

I'm voting Democrat because I believe that businesses should not be allowed to make profits for themselves. They need to break even and give the rest away to the government for redistribution as it sees fit.

I'm voting Democrat because I believe liberal judges need to rewrite the Constitution every few days to suit some fringe kooks who would NEVER get their agendas past the voters.

Partisanism: I'd rather have a sandwich.

quote:

Originally posted by Salamander:
Usually, when you work under an umbrella, your wages are less.

Also you don't get as wet!

quote:

Originally posted by Braling II:
I'm voting Democrat because...

You're voting Democrat!?

That is That!!

Heck with all these Politicians.

This is how it should really be:

PART I: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8cyvtvnK6Q

PART II: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=motknYiok4M

PART III: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvQLdvXDmMg


_____________________________________________________

quote:

Originally posted by Mr. Dark:
Obama WILL raise taxes. He has repeatedly said he will. Bush and his administration overspent and should have used the budget veto against Congress FAR more often. No argument there. Obama said he wants to "spread the wealth around". I have news for him. It is not his wealth to spread around. And I'm sick and tired of people saying that people who oppose Obama are racist. I strongly disagree with him on policy, tax, foreign trade, the war, the military (in spite of his recent pretended concern for the military), and his radically extreme views on abortion. None of these positions have anything to do with race. So can we please stop implying that everyone who opposes Obama or his socialist leanings is really, secretly, inwardly thinking the N word. Calling me a racist is really vile.

I am not calling you a racist. I was warning you of the kind of mind control sloganisms that are routinely used by the politicos to trigger your pre-programmed responses. Socialism = Bad; Capitalism = Good. Not in all cases. What we have is a combination of the two. Socialism, to affect the big things that cannot be done by the individuals or private industry. The usual solution that avoids the term Socialism is monopoly. What is the difference if one company is given an exclusive right to provide power to your homes or the government does it? You can argue efficiency, but then you have to factor in the profit for the monopoly which always drives the thing in a less efficient direction. It is Socialism in either case.

This election is basically over the same issues that were around in '32 when Roosevelt ran. His goals were to get the economy off its ass and currency moving again through the creation of jobs, new salaries and savings that could then be spent to acquire goods and services. The velocity of money went up mostly due to the Second World War crisis and the enormous expenditure of government money to win the war. The depression really did not end until after the war was over, in 1945-46, and a then a period of inflation began and lasted until 1982, when interest rates hit 21% and the economy slowed way down.

The best bet is that the economists will get it wrong again and we will first experience a long period of no grow or at best slow growth. Then, to get the economy moving again, the government will simply print more money, ala the bailout plan and the ownership of the banks, etc. That will ultimately result in another inflationary period, in 5 to 10 years from now.

What the "Socialist" Obama is proposing is a stimulant to the bottom of the food chain to get new jobs, through new technology, and thus spending increases, that result in more taxes being paid that can pay down the enormous debt that the country currently owes. The final step is to inflate the currency so the debt can be paid back in cheaper dollars, inflated ones. It has all been done before and it always works. The little guy pays the price for this planned mismanagement, he looses his job, his mortgage goes unpaid, he gets mad and then the folks who really run this little circus pacify him with another national crisis that usually results in war, which is then sold to the little guy as a patriotic duty to conduct on his own, while the fat kats behind all of this get richer on the war economy. None of the fat kats who set this all in motion will ever go to war, and will even back both sides and profit from it on both sides.

Mean while, I am a little guy and I see this all unfolding again. What do I do? I throw out anyone that I can from current office and hope that the replacements will control the plan a little more to my advantage, instead of their own.

Obama, taken at his word, says he will not tax anyone with less than $250K annually more than they are now, and wants to give those folks a tax cut. Why? To get the money moving again. Money sitting in a bank does no one any good. Money must exchange hands, multiplying the effect on every buyer and seller until the economy is healthy again. It does no good to benefit the rich. They can already ride out this period by investing in Bonds and living off the interest, nearly risk free. If you are not at present in this category you are not Rich. The rest of us need employment to generate salaries and spending capability to support our families.

The "N" word cannot be used against Obama, he is half White and very smart, has studied well and can handle the smear campaigns by not over reacting. Calling him a "Socialist" is an easy way to encode that he is not one of us, really, and that maybe the other guy is the better candidate, the devil you know. Sorry, not this time, I don't buy it and a lot of folks who are hurting in the not-so-rich category don't buy it either. This stuff will get really nasty in the next two weeks. I have already voted for Obama, and made my choice not on the basis of race or sex, but on intelligence and the ability to understand what is happening in the world, and to manage the country with reason and consensus, not with mysticism and religious fervor. If you do not vote for Obama you are not a racist, automatically, but are suspect as to how gullible you are in believing that the folks who got us into this little financial crisis are the ones to get us out of it. They could, but they will get richer and you, the little guy, will get poorer and more frustrated. Rise up and take back your country and let’s get this these selfish ideologues back to their counting rooms and country clubs.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: patrask,