patrask. The question came up on a cable news program last week. A small number of abortions result in the baby surviving the procedure. Several things occur afterwards. The baby is wrapped in a towel and set aside to die. A baby with a detectable heartbeat and breathing can be terminated by the doctor via several other alternative actions. These aforementioned procedures are legal and Obama supports this. The question was what do you think of this?

You wrote, Show me your M.D. What are you referring to?

quote:

Originally posted by Phil Knox:
It all boils down to after examining the evidence, who is your God?

Well done!

quote:

Originally posted by patrask:
Thus, issues like abortion become non-issues, when they are presented as NOT MY BUSINESS. Choosing to abort or not to abort is a personal decision, and when others try to legislate that in order to control their neighbors actions, the result is always bad. For that reason I am not against abortion, only in favor of adoption as a better solution, for those who strongly feel that abortion is wrong FOR THEM.

I take your point, but the reason I feel differently is that the aborted children's rights are not being taken into account - the right to live!

Reminds me of a song:


The Survivor

I have heard the slander of many,
Terror on every side.
While they council together against me,
A scheme to take away my life.

I am small, concealed in this darkness,
Yearning to see the light, but I may never
Because of the heartless attempt
To take away my life.

Am I safe? The water around me
Is changing. Is it allright?
I am burning. Oh what are they doing?
They want to take away my life.

But as for me, I trust in Thee,
Oh, Lord, my times are in Your hands.
You are my God, deliver me
From the solution that they have planned.

I'm condemned, completely unwanted,
I struggle to stay inside,
Oh, my dear mother, your future is haunted,
If they succeed and take away my life.

I'm cut off, exposed in this cold room,
For love and warmth I strive, will you discard me,
Throw away or starve me,
And slowly drain away my life.

But as for me, I trust in Thee,
Oh, Lord, my times are in Your hands.
You are my God, deliver me
From the solution that they have planned.

Desperate hands reach out to embrace me,
And steal away in the night,
A gentle voice is speaking assuringly,
No one will take away your life.

Now I am one apart from the millions
Fortunate to survive.
And though I bear on my body these old wounds,
They didn't take away my life.


- Phil Keaggy

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Doug Spaulding,

quote:

Originally posted by embroiderer:
patrask. The question came up on a cable news program last week. A small number of abortions result in the baby surviving the procedure. Several things occur afterwards. The baby is wrapped in a towel and set aside to die. A baby with a detectable heartbeat and breathing can be terminated by the doctor via several other alternative actions. These aforementioned procedures are legal and Obama supports this. The question was what do you think of this?

You wrote, Show me your M.D. What are you referring to?

What I am saying is simply this: Who are you to cast the first stone, or any stone, you are not qualified to make any such judgement, having no medical training in the performance of this procedure. It is not your abortion that was so-called botched, but the woman who had thought it through and reached a decision that must have been terribly difficult for her to reach. If the doctor made a procedural error, he should fix it, so that the outcome is what the woman wanted it to be. If you strongly dissagree with this, then submit your name to a list of available parents who are willing to take any such child, sight unseen and do so, without reviewing the child or the circumstances. That would be a very admirable thing for you to do. Short of that I say what business is it of yours what the Doctor and the patient decide to do? It is a medical decision only between patient and Doctor already ageed to by both. Yes, I support this and respect Obama for taking the position against strong oppostion from moralists who think they know better than the people who's lives are being affected.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: patrask,

quote:

Originally posted by patrask:
If the doctor made a procedural error, he should fix it, so that the outcome is what the woman wanted it to be. If you strongly dissagree with this, then submit your name to a list of available parents who are willing to take any such child, sight unseen and do so, without reviewing the child or the circumstances. That would be a very admirable thing for you to do. Short of that I say what business is it of yours what the Doctor and the patient decide to do? It is a medical decision only between patient and Doctor already ageed to by both. Yes, I support this and respect Obama for taking the position against strong oppostion from moralists who think they know better than the people who's lives are being affected.

Nazi thinking!

What is the thinking here about Muslim families who expose their daughter to something, can it be said, on the order of a post-abortion situation because she dates a non-Muslim?

Should the government stay out of this and let this be anguished over the parents and family who must make such a difficult decision?

quote:

Originally posted by patrask:

quote:

Originally posted by Braling II:
"In God We Trust"

You won't find that in the Constitution or the National Anthem. Its a johnny come lately add on pushed during the cold war to set the USA apart from the so called god-less Soviet Union of old. To me it always begs the question: who's God do we all trust in?

To "beg the question" means to avoid it. More and more people get that one wrong. Better to say "raises the question".

By the way, you will find "God" in both the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Several places.

Want to discuss the ever-more-skewed Judge Black spin on the phrase "Church and State" next?

How about the fact that adopting parents are overwhelmingly Christian?

quote:

Originally posted by Phil Knox:
Nazi thinking!

Well, I wouldn't insult Mr Trask by calling him a Nazi - he's a very fine gentleman, we just have different beliefs on the subject of abortion.

quote:

A small number of abortions result in the baby surviving the procedure. Several things occur afterwards. The baby is wrapped in a towel and set aside to die. A baby with a detectable heartbeat and breathing can be terminated by the doctor via several other alternative actions.

I am absolutely amazed that anyone calling them self a human being could do anything like this to a baby. It is an aberration from humanity, and any "physician" who performs such an horrendous act should have their medical license revoked permanently.

(I was going to say "drug out into the street and shot" but that's too good for them.)

Terminated by the doctor!? You mean murdered!

(***sigh***)

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Doug Spaulding,

____________________________________

Okay Okay! (this is likely active for the next hour or two)

???Who is behind THIS:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10103521/


_____________________________________

I voted.

quote:

Originally posted by Braling II:

quote:

Originally posted by patrask:

quote:

Originally posted by Braling II:
"In God We Trust"

You won't find that in the Constitution or the National Anthem. Its a johnny come lately add on pushed during the cold war to set the USA apart from the so called god-less Soviet Union of old. To me it always begs the question: who's God do we all trust in?

To "beg the question" means to avoid it. More and more people get that one wrong. Better to say "raises the question".

By the way, you will find "God" in both the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Several places.

Want to discuss the ever-more-skewed Judge Black spin on the phrase "Church and State" next?

How about the fact that adopting parents are overwhelmingly Christian?

I apologize. I looked up The Star Spangled Banner : http://kids.niehs.nih.gov/lyrics/spangle.htm

and in the fourth stanza (I did not know there were four stanzas) the phase "In God We Trust" is listed as our motto. Therefore, with this as officially our National Anthem since 1931, I guess "In God We Trust" in also our motto.

Now, for those who become citizens and are not Christian, I guess they are stuck with it? the word God capitalized is likely to be first found in the King James version of the Bible, of Judeo-Christian origin for sure. I prefer the Declaration of Indepenence which used the phrase: "Endowed by their Creator" as a more appropriate statement free from any particular religious connotations. Thanks for enlightening me on this, I was truly amazed. Maybe all we need is brief statement to the effect that the word God is not restricted to only the Judeo-Christian deity, but encompasses the concept of the Architect of the Universe, or The Creator?

I withdraw to ponder.

P.S.: I am glad to see that many Christians do embrace adoption, but they are the majority religous group, so there should be more adoptions by Christians just due to numbers.

I discussed all of this with my retired kindergarten teacher wife, who is never wrong, (i.e., She Who Must BE Obeyed!)and she agreed with me, that, in the case of the botched abortion, the surviving child should be the responsibility of the Hospital/doctor and they should see that the baby is prperly cared for and put up for adoption. I agree. However, not being an M.D. and not knowing what process was used to produce the abortion, I wonder if the surviving baby is damaged in any way. So what you say, I agree, but there are consequences, mainly in the cost of caring for such a baby. Now the issue is a wider one, when society must judge how much we are willing to pay to support a possibly brain damaged baby for the course of its life? Not easy decisions to make, but that just points to the reason for leaving the case in the hands of medical professionsals, within some general guidelines of conduct.

Declaration of Independence, opening sentence:

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

quote:

Originally posted by Braling II:
...to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them...

Oh, so they're referencing the pagan God, then!

Well, changing the subject a little, here is one answer to the age old question, why does God premit evil in the first place. By Dr David Comings author.

http://www.didmancreategod.com/

Then click on the Blog For Science and Religion.
Very interesting article.

quote:

Originally posted by Braling II:
Declaration of Independence, opening sentence:

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

Thanks, it sounds like the Architect of the Universe idea (Masonic) or the Creator (of all nature) and to that I can subscribe.