Should the link be removed, or are the succeeding posts warning enough?

P. S. Removed the link but left the comments.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: dandelion,

Ask the Bishop:

Q: How do we really know what Jesus said? They get so much wrong. Is it not a house of cards?

A: It is not easy to determine what Jesus actually said or did, but I believe it is more substantial than a house of cards. Probably the reason traditional Catholics and evangelical Protestant fundamentalists try to literalise the Bible is that they recognize how fragile their grasp on truth really is and, unable to be secure in that fragility, they make incredible claims for the literal words of scripture or for the teaching authority of the church. Literalism in any form is little more than pious hysteria.

The problems are that we have nothing in writing from the time Jesus lived. The earliest material in the New Testament would be Paul's Epistles, written 20-34 years after the crucifixion and by a man who did not know the human Jesus. Paul's conversion is dated some one to six years after the crucifixion. From Paul we learn that Jesus was crucified, that he introduced the Lord's Supper and that he was perceived as alive in some way following the crucifixion and little more.

The gospels are written between 70 at the earliest (Mark) and 100 at the latest (John). Yet all four gospels reveal the impact of this Jesus on a variety of people. The Fellows of the Jesus Seminar spent more than a decade going over everything that the four gospels record Jesus as ever having said. When they completed this study, they determined that no more than 16% of the sayings of Jesus are authentic to the man Jesus which, of course, means that some 84% of the sayings attributed to Jesus are not historically accurate. The Seminar did not find a single word attributed to Jesus in the Fourth Gospel (John) to be authentic. The Jesus of John's gospel speaks to the concerns of the Christian Church near the end of the first century, not the literal words of a man of history.

I think I can demonstrate that all four of the gospel writers knew they were not writing either history or biography. Each was interpreting Jesus in the context of their relationship with the Synagogue and their time in history, most especially following the Jewish-Roman War when in 70 CE the city of Jerusalem was leveled by the Roman invaders.

If we looked at the gospels as portraits of Jesus painted by the second or even third generation of Christians and not as photographs or tape recordings capturing his exact deeds and words, I think we would be closer to the truth.

I believe the gospels give us insight into the impact of a man of history and they open the doors for an exploration into the mystery and wonders of God. That is why I treasure them.

– John Shelby Spong

quote:

Originally posted by Doug Spaulding:
Ask the Bishop:


From Paul we learn that Jesus was crucified, that he introduced the Lord's Supper and that he was perceived as alive in some way following the crucifixion and little more.


– John Shelby Spong

This Bishop Spong is a total idiot.

There is absolutely no way to describe him in any other terms. Why?

Christianity rises or falls on one event. And that one event only is: Did Jesus come back to life in a physical body that lives forever. Did he ressurect?

And if he did not, the Gospels make it crystal clear: We are duped, and we are the greatest fools in all humankind. Christianity is a farce if Jesus did not rise from the dead.

Here Bishop Spong considers that one event as ... a mere possibility, take it or leave it. This guy is a FRAUD!!!!

Consider his motives and he's worse than a fraud.

I was born on December 22, the shortest day of the year, the day when the SUN of GOD ceases to move, as measured against the meridian overhead, and literally stands still for three days, i.e., dies for three days. This is the Winter Solstice, meaning SUN STANDS STILL. Then at the end of the third day, December 25th, the SUN of GOD is born, resurrected again and begins to rise slowly upward again until he reaches the highest point on the journey, at the opposite or Summer Solstice, on June 21. This is the Reason for the Season. This event has been celebrated by Man for hundreds of thousands of years, and noted as marks on the walls of deep caves as the light from the SUN of GOD moved slowly through the path and then stopped on December 22. The joy Man has felt in his heart when shown by the light on the cave walls the SUN was born again and started to rise on its annual journey back to the highest point in the sky. This meant that winter would come to an end, spring would come again and the crops would give yield to Man to continue the cycle of life. I truly celebrate each December 22 through 25 as the pageant of Winter Solstice is made clear to all that can see.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: patrask,

The above post, my friends, is what happens when informational hygiene breaks down.

Legitimate Sources? No need!

Perspective? Out the window!

Who needs the works and opinions of widely-accepted "scholars", "experts" or those with "degrees" to tell you how the world is? Joe Schmoe has cobbled together a few facts with a whole helping of hearsay and falsified material, and put it all together; he'll let you in on what THEY have been keeping from you.

You can sit pleasantly in your armchair, confident that you know a truth those plebeian sheep are too close-minded to embrace. All you have to put out the window is skepticism, logic,fact, and your own identity: Then the TRUTH is yours.

Happy Christmastide to all, by the way.

The Church chose the Winter Solstice (when the light begins to increase) as the time to celebrate Christ's birth.
Everyone knew that at the time, too. No big secret or plot.
Also, you may take interest in knowing that the church celebrates the nativity of St. John the Forunner on June 24th (around the Summer Solstice) because it's then the light begins to decrease. What did St John say? "I must decrease, so that He may increase".

I have a good friend who's a monk in a skete near by who is currently sporting a button on his riasa (cassock) reading, "It's OK To Say "Merry Christmas"!"

Merry Christmas!

quote:

Originally posted by Braling II:
The Church chose the Winter Solstice (when the light begins to increase) as the time to celebrate Christ's birth.
Everyone knew that at the time, too. No big secret or plot.
Also, you may take interest in knowing that the church celebrates the nativity of St. John the Forunner on June 24th (around the Summer Solstice) because it's then the light begins to decrease. What did St John say? "I must decrease, so that He may increase".

I have a good friend who's a monk in a skete near by who is currently sporting a button on his riasa (cassock) reading, "It's OK To Say "Merry Christmas"!"

So you're saying that because early Christian writings explain how they identified Christ with Sol Invictus because Christ rose again like the sun and because, like you said, the Church chose that day because it corresponded with the solstice already celebrated,

Christ wasn't created as an astrological sun myth by an ancient masonic sun cult that controls the world?

But... but... that's so logical!

Cheater.

Now, on to more festive topics:

This is my favorite Christmas tree picture:

Plebeian is a good word.

quote:

Originally posted by Braling II:
The Church chose the Winter Solstice (when the light begins to increase) as the time to celebrate Christ's birth.
Everyone knew that at the time, too. No big secret or plot.
Also, you may take interest in knowing that the church celebrates the nativity of St. John the Forunner on June 24th (around the Summer Solstice) because it's then the light begins to decrease. What did St John say? "I must decrease, so that He may increase".

Looks as if the church reversed the dates, http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7013365360 but what the hey. Imagine if you will the awful possibilities of Christmas in June!

quote:

Originally posted by Nico:
The above post, my friends, is what happens when informational hygiene breaks down.

Legitimate Sources? No need!

Perspective? Out the window!

Who needs the works and opinions of widely-accepted "scholars", "experts" or those with "degrees" to tell you how the world is? Joe Schmoe has cobbled together a few facts with a whole helping of hearsay and falsified material, and put it all together; he'll let you in on what THEY have been keeping from you.

You can sit pleasantly in your armchair, confident that you know a truth those plebeian sheep are too close-minded to embrace. All you have to put out the window is skepticism, logic,fact, and your own identity: Then the TRUTH is yours.

Happy Christmastide to all, by the way.

Gee Nico, must have sruck a nerve or something, judging by your animosity.

Legitimate Source:

Visit the Griffith Planetarium in Los Angeles and you will see a magnificent demonstration of this on a sculpture designed to show the SUN tracing out its path as the months change, and actually standing still on December 22 through the 25 and then begin to move again, be born again, on its path toward the highest point in the sky on June 21. This sculpture is an exact analog of what was created by primitive Man in deep caves that were purposely oriented to the South, and had a hole set above the doorway to make a beam of light as the SUN passed over the meridian at noon. That spot would then be projected on to the back wall, the North wall of the cave, and the progress of the SUN marked and noted on that wall. Celebrations would then ensue at the resurrection of the SUN on December 25th. The Winter Solstice was a time for celebrating the rebirth of the SUN and thus the return to a green world for Man.

BTY the politically correct greeting for the season is now:

RamaHannuKwanzaMas

It may get longer or shorter as time goes on, but the Winter Solstice will always be there for us to celebrate.

Yes, the Catholic Church was no slouch when absconding with existing holidays of their pagan and heretical constituents, and then torturing them for even celebrating them in their own way. Why do I care about any of this? Because this it is just wrong on the part of an organization to set itself up as the only correct answer to a puzzle and then force people to believe the myth created by that organization. If you are happy in your faith be at peace this time of year, but know the reason for the season was there way before the Catholic Church incorporated it into the canon and then proceeded to punish those who practiced the old knowledge. I will celebrate my way in peace as well, happy in the knowledge that there is a true reason for the season for all to see on the wall of my cave.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: patrask,

I know the history of the celebration's origins quite well. I understand what a solstice is.

However, it is not the fact of the solstice, but your conclusion based on those facts and a spoonful of false information, that is faulty.

If you are comfortable in your faith, continue to believe the conclusions drawn by those who wish you to throw out an old "doctrine" to accept a shiny new one.

Note: I also find it interesting that you say "Catholic Church"; what would become the Eastern Orthodox Church also persecuted pagans for their celebrations, centuries before the Schism of 1054.

Now, on to more festive topics:

Here's another good one