quote:

Originally posted by embroiderer:
If you try to pour new wine, the truth, into an old wineskin, meaning those people set in their ways, the wineskin will burst with too much information to handle...

Hey - we're talking about Irish Whiskey now, and that's enough to make even the heartiest of enemies forget their disagreements. And we're not the heartiest of enemies!

embroiderer: I don't mind hearing what these rascals have to say. As to the new wineskins, maybe the irish coffee set respond differently...

CHRIST IS RISEN!

http://srbigham.com/en/index.html

Nard, don't go. You have already said all that is necessary. There is nothing you can add except your presence. They have already made their view on God and religion. And you are certainly not going to be changing anyone's views over Irish coffee.

Braling II: Thanks. BC and AD split at the intersection of the Resurrection.

quote:

Originally posted by Braling II:
CHRIST IS RISEN!

Alleluia! He is risen indeed!

...I believe is the correct response.

quote:

Originally posted by embroiderer:
Nard, don't go.

Mr K is a grown man - I believe he can decide on whether or not to hang out with a few friends over beverages. Thanks for your input, though.

Beverage is a good word.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Doug Spaulding,

Since the stated purpose seems to be to meet for conversation, sounds all right to me. You have your moderator's permission.

quote:

Originally posted by dandelion:
You have your moderator's permission.

Brilliant - thanks!

I hope to check in once or twice during the next two weeks and see the progress of this, the "How Deeply, Doug" page as well as the other topics. Will be reading "Christianity On Trial" by Carroll & Shiflett. Will report anon.
Cheerio!

__________________________________________________________________________________________
...
............Presence is Requested at a Designated Local Featuring, at the very least, Irish Whiskey. Perhaps a pad and pencil for note taking. Or notes of profound statements to be framed at a later date. A place of at least some reasonable QUIET is a desired factor.
Discussions at this meeting will be contained to, at the outmost, those subjects that are known in the State of California to cause the world to tilt, or at least to spin quicker than the eye at times. Should something wicked our way come by, it shall be ushered out the door promptly.

Other than that...date, time, place, people, are open...

__________________________________________________________________________________________

embroider says:

quote:

The gospel IS the declared word of God in writing.

No. The Bible is two things. It is a record of the early history of the Jews. It is the writings of people who followed Jesus Christ. Many controversial writings that show Jesus as more human than god have been excluded from the Bible. There are many different versions of this book, as well...and absolutely no writings by Jesus himself.

This is what causes endless problems between religious groups, each declaring that their 'holy book' is THE ONE and that the others are false. If J.C. could speak to the endless number of folks who espouse this stuff, my feeling is he would disagree. The truth is, it doesn't matter by what name you call God, or how you worship him, or what book you refer to for guidance. It doesn't matter...as long as your teachings do not espouse hate, murder, or racism, or lay claim to being The One Big Truth. Otherwise, you are missing the point, anyway.

An example of organized religion going awry:
My parents were Mormons for exactly five years. They were also very liberal. Mormonism represents the basest form of racism. I never saw a single non-white person in our church when I was a kid. For five miserable years, I had to sit in Sunday school and listen to garbage like 'the mark of Cain was turning Cain's descendants black'...which at that time was the Mormon Church's excuse for not allowing blacks to hold the priesthood. Utter garbage. Joesph Smith was also convicted twice of fraud BEFORE he claimed the Angel Moroni appeared to him and told him where the 'golden plates' (Book of Mormon)were hidden. You can research this yourself from historical records, although Mormons deny this fervently.

My parents dumped Mormonism on the very day they attended their 'sealing' ceremony in Alberta, Canada at the temple there. My mother objected to having to remove her clothes and have 'holy oil' applied to her body by strangers...in front of other naked couples who were doing the same ceremony.
This was in the late sixties.
Us kids stayed in the motel. On the way home to Seattle, my parents hardly spoke at all. When we pulled into the driveway, my mother informed us we were no longer Mormons...she was furious.
And she tossed out the thermal underwear, too. (Mormons would understand this reference.)

Religions based on fear, or teachings that claim they alone represent a 'true religion' and 'one true God' are basically selfish baloney. Over the centuries, organized religion has been the catalyst of wars, torture, and misery.
My opinion: J.C. was a great teacher. Can you believe the rest? It's a matter of faith, and you have a right to it. Saying your view is the Only View That Matters? No.

Personally, I think Native Americans are much closer to the truth concerning the relationship of a higher power and man. They understood the relationships between the Earth and Man better than most of us.
'Modern' man, on the other hand, has engaged in wars over religion, the building of devices that could destroy all life on the planet with the push of a button, and the trashing of the environment. When confronted with these problems and realities, many people call it 'God's will.' This is a cop-out.

God has nothing to do with it. It's called free will. Consider for a moment how much better off the world would be right now if religious groups would just worship as they please and stop espousing themselves as The Only Truth.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Robert M Blevins,

QUOTE BY:
Robert M Blevins:
No. The Bible is two things. It is a record of the early history of the Jews. It is the writings of people who followed Jesus Christ. God has nothing to do with it. It's called free will. Consider for a moment how much better off the world would be right now if religious groups would just worship as they please and stop espousing themselves as The Only Truth.

________________________________________________

Robert. I'm sorry to read the junk you went thru by people in such confusion that they had absolutely nothing good to convey to you. Accent on the word 'nothing'. From reading your account they had absolutely no idea of truth, not even a clue. So just how were you going to learn any?

I would say I would have been as warped as a boiling hot pan thrown into cold water if I had gone thru all that. Somehow, with my unsettling upbringing, I made it strictly thru the grace of God. Lately, I came thru it to a point where I can look at much of the junk and see thru it. And tho I may be up to my neck in everyday problems and stuff of this world that confuses the soul and mind and heart, I know without a question that God loves me. He let's me see just a glimmer of a shadow of where he is taking me. But it's beyond description, a place where I will be all that he intended for me before all the junk hit the fan.

Scripture says God wrote the Bible. So I have to disagree with your own personal take on it. Why? Once you dig into scripture, you'll realize no one, anywhere, can surpass what it says is true about life. The most ingenious thinker could never come close to the depth of meaning that turns inside your soul with insight that puts the best masterpieces to shame. So, then, what's left? This is what God sounds like!

Jesus said that he was the truth, and he was the life, and that no one could find God unless they understood him first, and that by so doing, would understand God, because, he said, they were both the same!

Since, it's written, he chose to be tortured and mocked and crucified for me, I'll take his word for it. Especially when you read why it was done.

Did you know that scripture says that Christ was crucified before the foundations of world were made, but it was all played out for us to see what he had already done? Go chew on that for awhile. He came back from the dead, and for over a month walked thru walls, apppeared and disappeared, and had a body with wounds that never healed. Hundreds saw and met with him over those weeks. The dead came out of the graves and went home to their families. It's all written there to be read.

And so, I'll listen to the evidence of history's greatest event, and experience some of it today. So great an event that the calendar was started over again, beginning with the year 1, the year he came back from the dead. It's 2007 'AD'.

I suppose I do take issue with zealotry, since it has been the cause of much misery.

Religious zealotry is the same all over. You say this...perhaps Muslims say something else, and the followers of another religion something else again. All constantly jockeying for better position in The Grace of God Show. All claiming they are right. Wars are sometimes fought in the name of God...and I think God holds up his hands and says, "Hey, wait a minute. I never preached THAT..."

I see this type of behavior as counter-productive to peace and at direct odds with the basic principles J.C. proposed to people during his travels. He did not say the Bible was a perfect Word of God, or The Only Real Book That Matters. (capitalizations used for effect) In reality, the Bible was pored over, disputed, and constructed by human beings over a period of centuries. Human beings. Then Gutenberg printed up the first version more than 1300 years later...

I have my own theories, but I also like to look at the bigger picture. I often refer to Native Americans and ancient peoples because they also looked at the bigger picture. They stared into the sky and wondered if man was the only intelligent life. They had gods, but they understood a lot more than we do today.

If you are worried about going to Heaven or something, all you have to do is be a good person. There are enough bad people out there already. I have an objection when people start saying you have to follow a strict set of rules to go to heaven, or that if you don't follow these rules (many of them modified by man along the way, complete with complex rituals)you'll end up in a real bad place.
This exposes a basic flaw with organized religion...the use of fear (or the hatred of other faiths) to motivate people.
Christianity is a great thing, but it has also been the source of misery in the world. It wiped out a majority of Native Americans, and was used as a battle flag when the Spanish conquistadores came to the Americas. It has been used to subjugate entire peoples, destroying their cultures, and wiping them out, all in the name of Christ.
Then...there was the Inquisition, and the Dark Ages, and the rest could fit into a large book. The Bible has been used both as a symbol of faith, and as a reason to kill. Admittedly, it is not the ONLY book used in this way, but it's the most famous example.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Robert M Blevins,

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Robert M Blevins:
If you are worried about going to Heaven or something, all you have to do is be a good person. There are enough bad people out there already. I have an objection when people start saying you have to follow a strict set of rules to go to heaven, or that if you don't follow these rules (many of them modified by man along the way, complete with complex rituals)you'll end up in a real bad place.
===========================================

Robert, poking my nose in her a moment if you can let me...

Fanaticism is world wide. On your comments, I could spend a lengthy amount of time here, but let me say this concerning the above passage from your posting:

Concerning being good:
Christ said ..."you must be as perfect as my heavenly Father is perfect in order to enter the kingdom of heaven."

The passage goes on with people asking, basically, well how can anyone get there then.

The book of Ephesians stresses thruout the chapters that it is NOT by being good that you enter heaven. But faith in Christ. In faith, and obedience, Christ is called the Last Adam. He undid what Adam messed up.

The Adam and Eve story has one really glaring flaw.
Man has been around on Earth for a LOT longer than the time period where the story could have occurred...and life itself for at least seventy-five million years. Creationists conveniently ignore these facts.

If you want to believe a fairy tale, I propose that the Twilight Zone episode "Probe 7 - Over and Out' with Richard Basehart is a more likely scenario of the real Adam and Eve, had they existed, rather than the Genesis version.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Robert M Blevins,