quote:

Originally posted by Nard Kordell:
Without a backbone in moral and ethical standards, things slip....

Oh, no doubt; I do agree with you there. However, it is possible to be entirely non-religious and still have a strong sense of ethics, just as it is possible for a person to call themselves a Christian and behave in an abominable fashion. Morality and religion do not necessarily go hand in hand---again, this is why I don't take much stock in the religious viewpoints put forth by various candidates. They can say all the right words, and still act like idiots.

I had not heard about the news (regarding the teaching of the Holocaust) from England; if it is true, that is utterly ridiculous. But---again---such a scenario only promotes the idea of complete separation of church and state, in my mind. Specialised religious viewpoints should not be permitted to shape public policy (such as the basics taught in government-funded schools) in this way.

You said "I tend to, sorry to say (no offense)...disagree with a lot that you say. Especially regarding someone's faith, or contradictory...'I hear from God'...situations." Well, to each their own, I suppose. But in my mind, history is a veritable catalogue of human atrocities, sanctioned by participants who act in the name of their god or religion. (The inquisition, to give a broad example. Or the witch hunts that were popular for a couple of hundred years...) I think it's safe to say that God does not condone such bad behaviour...

Well, if they can't read the history, they are then bound to repeat it, eh? As I understand this rumor, it was one area of the country with a heavy Muslim population that was pushing for this NEW history. Thank GOD for the Simon Weisenthal Center. Though I am not Jewish, I contribute to that cause for this very reason, to continually provide some semblance of Truth agaisnt the anti-truths of the world domination folks.

Here is one example of such nonsense from my area of the USA, Orange County CA:
http://www.snopes.com/religion/islam.asp

And, just for the record:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/holocaust.asp

This message has been edited. Last edited by: patrask,

patrask,
Yes,I would be surprized indeed if this took place in the UK where there are still fresh flowers on World War cenotaphs.
Here, however, where some recently-polled high school students believed WWII began when the US bombed Japan, anything's possible(except, of course, say, the above cited example of teaching the life of Jesus)!

Patrask----thanks for the links! I really do need to remember to check out Snopes more often...

Nard, I don't follow your post (6/25 - 12:31pm)?? What are you referring to?

Frank (fjp451):

What post are you talking about that you don't follow that is supposed to be mine?. You're saying 6/25 at 12:31PM. ?? I can't seem to locate it!

theoctobercountry~
per your above posting:
About someone calling themselves a Christian and behaving in an abominable manner is nothing new. I'll take this one a few steps further. Christians who actually are Christians act in an abominible manner. This is a problem written about thruout scipture. Peter the apostle said it pretty straight-forward in scripture:
"The good I want to do, I can't. And the bad that I don't want to do, that is what I do."

Most important ...there is a universe of difference between 'saying' I am a Christian, and truly 'being' a Christian. A person who says he's a Christian likely thinks he's generally a pretty good fellow. An authentic Christian knows he is vile, broken, stupid, perforated thru and thru with every ghastly spiritual disease known to mankind. It's called total depravity. And at the same time he understand the mercy of God who intervenes and instills within that person the Character of Himself. Now of course, there is going to be a war. The dark side doesn't like the bright side. And the bright side has absolutely no use for the dark side. So sometimes Christians slip. And when they do they can often do with with a full knowledge of how bad they are, and how good God is.

But to say you are a Christian and never know this difference between the human soulful condition and God's goodness, is saying you are a Christian to just wanting hear your own voice blabber the word.

If you think there is still something good in "you", it's written in scripture that someone once asked Jesus to explain as to exactly who was it that was good. And Jesus gave a one sentence reply. "No one is good...but God."

__

I think the problem with many evangelicals with Barack Obama is that he has not been explicitly clear about his Biblical understanding of Christ, especially since he calls himself a Christian.

I do understand your viewpoint, as well as the concept of "total depravity," but I'm not sure what that has to do with my previous posts. I guess what I was trying to say was this...

Personally, I think I would be happier with a political leader who may not particularly religious, but who has a good heart and a strong dose of common sense, rather than one who is extremely devout. From my own personal experience, many of those who burn with a sort of blazing inner fire of their own religious convictions see the world totally in black and white terms. In other words, they may feel that God has shown them the correct course of action, and they are blinded to any other possibility. And I am inherently distrustful of a political leader who feels that they speak for God, or are doing God's work on this earth. History has shown us leaders, time and again, who feel this way but who are in fact totally misguided. (Again, just as an example, think of the myriads of witch-hunters all those years ago. I'm sure they felt that they were doing just what God called them to do---but think of all the poor innocents who died because of their misguided fervour.)

Hmmm, don't know if I got my point across, but I'm not sure how to explain it any better than that...

Okay, totally off-topic here; I suppose this really should go in the "religion" thread, but now I've got to thinking...

Regarding the concept of "total depravity"... I am frankly puzzled as to why some Christian groups place so much stress on the idea. (Wait, I seem to be "frankly puzzled" about a lot of things, don't I? Ha!) Anyway... Heck, it's a given that man is born to trouble as the sparks fly upward. People behave badly (often very badly), take the wrong course of action, all the time. It takes no great intelligence to know that the very best humanity is capable of, is as ashes and rags, to the very least that God (creator of the universe) can do. Still, why do some beat themselves senseless with that thought over and over again? Just wake up each morning and respectfully say "God, I know I'm a very fallible human being. Please help me get through the day without being a total jerk or making any bone-headed decisions," and let that be an end to it---and then get over yourself and get on with life. To continually stress over what a pile of crap the human race is, seems to me to be rather disrespectful of God, who after all created humans in the first place...

Sorry, as I said, that thought has no bearing whatsoever on politics! But that's it for me for the evening; a storm is moving in and I'm unplugging everything. There is NO WAY I'm about to let yet another computer blow up from a storm surge!

quote:

Originally posted by Nard Kordell:
I guess Phil Nichols (philnic) there in the UK can tell me if what I heard is wrong, but England has decided that schools can no longer teach the history of the Holocaust.

This is news to me. I admit to being out of the News loop over the last week, but that would have been a MAJOR story that I coud not have missed.

I'll see if I can find out more and report back to you.

...and here I am back again.

It's not true. In fact, it's all down to a hoax email.

Read the story here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7226778.stm

Oh, good. I was just about to bust a blood vessel there, suggesting to send them to Germany where Holocaust denial is an actual crime!

Thanks, Phil!
There is so much cr*p going on out there it wouldn't be a surprise if it were all true. It's certainly likely true in Iran.

And by the way, I feel I've somewhat worn myself mightily thin in efforts to make an impression from some things in scripture. In fact, what I really feel is I've jabbered myself into a self-made corner of sorts. Time to re-evaluate more than just a few things undermining my coherency.

Then you got Ray Bradbury who speaks reams of seemingly scriptural integrity and seems to say he truly understands, and at the same time seems to say (a bit more loudly)...that he actually really doesn't get it. I feel often Ray is like a guy painting the grand landscape with some magnificent brush dipped in madly beautiful red paint, and calmly says that it's my opinion if I think it's red while in fact, there aint no paint at all.

I kinda don't get it! ...Kinda.

Didn't youse guys see patrask's Snopes links above?

Every time I think I'm a Democrat, they do something stupid, and every time I think I'm a Republican , they do something greedy.
-- Jay Leno

Braling, does this (Snopes' articles) seem to be a step closer "To the Chicago Abyss" in some dangerous way? I routinely teach Diary of Anne Frank, Night, F451, Animal Farm, several related RB ss, The Crucible, and other similar themed titles with a passionate desire to keep students reading, reading, reading and in closer touch with responsibilities to think and question and speak.

Being informed is becoming more difficult in today's culture of instant information and relentless methods of PC media. The Coda of F451 stands as tall today as ever it did! For those who may not have read this before:
http://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/451/451.html

(Nard, RE: your last post on Page 2. ?)