"The american people are a bit excessive and that cannot be denied."

Sonya, this is a blanket statement, one which I greatly resent. Not every American is the wasteful ingrate that many people like to assume. Is your governor an average American? Where do you get your stats? Are all Americans the same? Americans are getting a bad wrap worldwide, because the only Americans that most of the world ever gets to meet are politicians, military personnel, and ugly tourists. TV and movies are not helping this image any. Perhaps if more people could meet some real Americans, they could get a different perspective. Next time, say something like, "many americans are a bit excessive." Then I could agree with you wholeheartedly.

P.S. I choose to ride the public buses to school as opposed to driving, in order to be more economic. Does that make me excessive?

Sonya,

Sorry for the delay in responding to you. For some reason I managed to overlook your very nice post.

Thanks for clearing up the matter regarding Roosevelt. I�ll agree that if it weren�t for oil, Saudi Arabia, and the Middle East, would be of little interest to us. But if our energy needs could be met with, oh, say, bananas, then South America and would be of vital interest to us, wouldn�t you agree? In short: I blame less the greed of oil companies than I do our desire to live a fairly nice lifestyle. (A desire, I believe, that is a trait shared by all societies. I can�t think of a single society that would turn the clock back to when things were harder and less comfortable, when disease was rampant and mortality rates high.)

I�m not sure I can go with you entirely into the territory you map out on Osama and the oppressed. I think he uses, and the oppressed accept, his religious excuses to gain the power they desire: Throw out the infidels and restore Muslim rule! I think the oppressed in Saudi Arabia may be very sorry they�re oppressed (if I were to go along with you on this thesis) but that given the opportunity, they would be equally, if not more so, oppressive against those who didn�t believe as they do. As for Osama being like Jerry Falwell, my goodness. You may brand Falwell an extremist but his brand of extremism hardly includes plans for his followers to fly jetliners into skyscrapers. No, Osama is more fascist than religious extremist or a combination of both, an Islamo-fascist, as I�ve seen it put.

Finally, I think you overstate your case about the power of oil companies. True, they lobby like any other interest group but there remains a power they, and their lawmakers, can�t ignore and that is the power of the market and the rules of supply and demand. I don�t buy into your theory that oil companies keep the supply of oil/gas deflated to keep prices high and better line their pockets. But if the price of gas rises to an intolerable level, demand decreases, and so will prices, eventually. The cycle will then repeat. Now, I�m not saying that oil companies aren�t greedy (As much as a company can be greedy or or altruistic.) but all businesses are trying to provide a rate of return to their investors that�s equal to the risk of their investment. (And I�ll spare you the discussion on how greed IS actually good.)

Groon,

Thanks for the compliment.

All,

Now if I could only find a way to tie this all back to Bradbury. . .

Best,

Pete

groon,

I did not mean to offend you. I was merely stating my opinion. I do not need to source my stat's as I did not supply any. That assertion was a mere opinion and was stated as such. I didn't say a recent poll exhibits Americans to be excessive. Maybe you do not live in an environment where you are surrounded by excessive individuals, to which I am incredibly jealous, because my environment is full of excessive individuals. And you are right. We are portrayed as excessive on television, movies, politics, etc. So how can I not have such an opinion.

Sonya

pterran,

I have to say that you have a point with Osama. He may create a society that oppresses as much as, or more than the previous one. But I still very much believe that followers are very easily manipulated, especially ones that are desperate for liberation and salvation. I would simply like to clarify that this is how Osama was able to obtain a following. We could only speculate what Osama and his followers would do if they gained sovereignity.

You misunderstand my remark about Falwell. I wasn't commenting on the degree of extremism. I was merely pointing out that there are extreme versions of every religion. Just as falwell only represents one version of christianity, Osama only represents one version of Islam. The comment was meant to point out that anybody can distort religion to there own interpretation.

With a little research you will find that oil companies lobby more than any other interest group. Condoleeza Rice used to work for Chevron. Cheney used to be CEO of Halliburton Oil. Almost all of our ambassadors to the middle east were consultants to unocal or chevron. You may not believe that production of refined oil is regulated to ensure maximum profits, but it is true. I understand the supply and demand graph. But if you control the supply to a commodity that will never lose demand, you can manipulate the whole process. If the demand is constant you can manipulate the demand to control profits. This is not a theory, this is true. You can look it up. I read it in my local paper and saw it on the news, so it shouldn't be to hard to find.

But you are right. This conversation is gettin gway to close to debates about the ups and downs of capitalism. A discussion about bradbury would be quite refreshing right about now.

Sonya

"If the demand is constant you can manipulate the demand to control profits."

Ooops!! Typo. I meant to say:

If the demand is constant you can manipulate the supply to control profits.

Sonya

Wow, let me begin to say I cant believe how many Bush hating leftest liberal nuts their are on this forum. IMO Mr. Bradbury had every right to say what he said and im damn glad he said it, that fat ass slob Moore took his own personal opinions and tried to sell it off as truth. anyone with half a brain can tell that this movie is a propganda movie and there is no truth in it. he stole Mr. Bradburys book title and ruined the book for me because I acociate it with this fat slob moore. this isnt an argument on RB political views its the fact that Moore stole his book title without his permission and ruined the name of his book with producing this movie of lies. I also thought it was nice how Moore wasnt even in the flint michigan film festival where he supoosdly was born, even though he was born in a rich suburn outside of flint in a small town.

Our country is the strongest it has been since WW2 the ecomony has been growing since august and we have created apx. 1.5 million jobs since then. oil prices are going down since OPEC decided to up production by half a million barrels a day. then in turn gas prices are going back down. i am paying about 1.65 a gallon where I live. the tax cuts that he implimited and might I add all havent came into effect yet will over the next 3 years stimulating the ecomony even more.

Whats john kerry talking about the worst ecomomy since the great depression.....considering unemployment is lower now than the "economic boom" of the clinton years....

i thought you people....Bradbury lovers such as I could see why he was so mad about this and back him up on it because he is totally right.

oh and to all the people who said right wing wackos and right wing retards well if u really feel that way then yes i am a right wing wacko, a pround member of the NRA, i own about 20 diffrent types of rifles and handguns. I voted for bush because i believe his polices, and am glad hes leading our country and wouldnt have it any other way. ohh and to the person who mentions moveon.org try this website on for size if u want some real news www.newsmax.com

Bush in 04 for a better country!!

[This message has been edited by el stevieboy (edited 06-30-2004).]

As a life-long fan of Ray Bradbury, I have suddenly lost all respect for him because of his petty objections and accusations over the title of the movie "Fahrenheit 9/11." In what way would the title damage Bradbury's work, credibility or profitability? If anything, I would think it would renew interest in his book and increase sales.

I was going to recommend that my teenage daughter read "Fahrenheit 451," but now that Bradbury has exhibited such selfish behavior, it is not high on my list of priorities; however, I plan to take my daughter to see "Fahrenheit 9/11" for a third time.

sunshine fan, I'd say.

Sonya,
Sorry, I didn't mean to attack you, I'm just so sick of hearing how every American is a bad person, and every non-American is great. Yes, TV, films, etc. paint a very bad image of us, but I simply refuse to live in shame of who I am, simply because many Americans are boorish pigs (I do not deny that). I won't deny that where I live am surrounded by many wasteful people, and the American stereotype (like most stereotypes) is rooted in some truth, however, I choose to focus on the good, and surround myself with intelligent, caring people.
A bit off topic: I've noticed that while it is celebrated to be proud of ethnic backgrounds in minorities, it is frowned upon to be proud of your skin if you are white. Every school campus has chapters of organizations such as Black Scholastic Achievment, MeCHA, and various other ethnic pride clubs, but if you're white, you are not allowed to express pride in liking the way you were made. This is obviously a deep rooted social issue, which deserves its own thread, of course, but I'm just touching on it to make a point.
And now...the point! We should not be ashamed to be Americans. That is where we were born, that is who we are. Instead, we must be responsible, and not succumb to the negative stereotypes of Americans. We must celebrate the GOOD in America andperhaps through our actions, people might someday be able to come away with a different picture of what Americans can be like. If we only change a couple people's idea of Americans, we've made a difference. I think if we just sit around putting down Americans, it also makes us look and feel bad about ourselves.
Black is beautiful!

I am a huge fan of Bradbury. Back when I got into Science Fiction, it was all about Bradbury and Asimov. Out of the two Bradbury was teh giant. These days I hardly think of him as an SF writer. More just as a a writer. I am dissapointed in his stance. Both from a political stance, and from the artistic aspect.
I suppose I had always assumed his politics paralelled mine because of the generally humanist slant of many of his stories. But I won't bealabor that point. I am more alarmed that he even raises the issue of title copyright. The title is of course similar. But it obviously using Ray's title for satirical purposes. Nobody will go to a theatre expecting a sequel to the movie based on Ray's book. I don't know. I suppose I expected him to be above all this politicing.

I'd like to cut in here for a sec:

Finally, I think you overstate your case about the power of oil companies. True, they lobby like any other interest group but there remains a power they, and their lawmakers, can�t ignore and that is the power of the market and the rules of supply and demand. I don�t buy into your theory that oil companies keep the supply of oil/gas deflated to keep prices high and better line their pockets."

---Pterran, that is a very, very simple way of looking at the situation. The world is currently run to the tune of the OPEC countries. The backbone of every single industrialized nation is oil. Those who control the oil, control just about everything. The OPEC organization was made just so that the supply of oil could be controled. No one, not even the nations that export oil, deny that they withold oil production in order to make money off the limited supply.

Cheers, Translator

groon,

You have a very good point. Being proud of who we are and where we are from is important. Though, we should take caution to not allow this pride make us think we are better than other individuals or nations. "I'm better" or "I'm right" has causes too many conflicts. However, attempting to refrain from this train of thought (ie "I'm right") while still maintaining the right to hold judgements is quite an arduous task. I do not claim to be able to refrain from this train of thought at times, even when I am aware of the repercussions of such thought.


Isn't this one of the theme espoused in Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451?

All,

Speaking of Bradbury, I can understand why he outspokenly objected to Moores politics and the similarity of the titles. I think that Moore has a very extreme and radical political view, one which Bradbury probably did not want to be associated with. By objecting to the similarity of the titles he is informing the public that he does not share Moores political view. I can uderstand his interest in doing so. Perhaps the way he conducted this objection was a bit offensive to Moore. My question to you all is can anyone enlighten me as to whether there were any themes present in both the book and the movie that would make Moore want to allude to the book. Or was Fahrenheit really a reference to temperature. The connection between the book and the movie, other than the title, eludes me.

Sonya

F451 is about censorhip and the restriction of ideas. My own view (and I haven't interviewed Moore on this, so this is pure speculation) is that Moore is trying to say that what he's "revealing" about Bush are "truths" that have been repressed and hidden. He sees himself as "uncensoring" the "truth" about Bush and American "evil" throughout the world.

Agreed with Mr dark, except I would take the words out of qoutations, and change the part about "evil of americans and Bush" (paraphrased) only to the evils of Bush, and the blind following of the americans.

Cheers, Translator

[This message has been edited by Translator (edited 07-06-2004).]

Translator,
Not out of disrespect for your beliefs, but isn't it also possible to blindly oppose? To blanketly state that everything IS FOR SURE 100% evil? I'm not saying that Bush and/or the US govt. isn't at least partially evil, but the truth is nobody knows all the facts. Period. Things might be a whole lot worse than even you imagine, or not quite as bad. I don't know for sure. That is why I'm not quick to jump on any band wagon, for or against. Sorry, just the number of people that I know who talk about literally NOTHING except how they honestly believe that Bush is literally a crack smoking satan worshipper have left a bad taste in my mouth. I almost want to vote for Bush in the next election just to piss them off! But then again, I might vote for Kerry so that when he's elected everyone will see that it's just a different brand of evil.