Where's Biplane? Calling Biplane...Calling Biplane...Come in, Biplane...

Hey, there he is!
http://static1.grsites.com/archive/sounds/aircraft/aircraft010.wav

On July 4th, a Los Angeles based NPR station KCRW 89.9 FM is airing a tribute to CBS Columbia Square; home to many radio broadcasts and TV programs. Mr. B has said that he was there at the opening, in 1938. Jack Benny, Burns and Allen and Edgar Bergen and Charlie McCarthy broadcast from this studio.

Most important to Ray was Norman Corwin's "On A Note of Trimph." Ray often quotes Mr. Corwin as being one of his inspirations. Mr. Corwin is in his 90s and is listed as appearing.

I took the information to Ray on Sunday and he should be listening to this program. So if you want to listen in with Mr. B. tune your dial on the 4th at 6 p.m. Pacific to 89.9 FM or follow the link and listen to the streaming audio or PodCast.

http://www.kcrw.com/etc/programs/ot/ot070704remembering_columbia

Remember, for those of you on the East Coast you'll be sitting in the easy chair with bandages on your hands from the fireworks at 9:00 p.m. and on the West Coast we'll just be starting the BBQ at 6:00 p.m.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: jkt,

I read a little while ago that
the ACLU
is suing the city of New Orleans for
displaying an icon of Jesus in the Court Building.
A violation of Church and State, says ACLU.
The Slidell City Court refuses to remove the painting of Jesus.

I say:
Let's start a religion that has BRICKS as
gods!! We bring adoration to BRICKS!

Therefore, if enough people join and make this a valid religion,
then it will totally distrupt governments. At least according to the ACLU! ALL BRICKS will have to be removed
to maintain seperation of Church and State!
Sounds Wacky?
So does the contemporary rendition of seperation of Church and State.
It never was originally intended as it now is presented. It was
meant that the government was not to 'mess' in any of the affairs of the Church. Period! Thru the centuries it seems some people don't like it that way! And they have managed to change it little by little until we got such goofy rules as today!

I don't know where to start?

If my memory serves my correctly it was people like Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson that fought to keep religion free, that is, out of government all together. Why? To prevent what had been the course in Europe from happening in America. That is, they did not want a state sponsored religion, any religion.

If one religion is endorsed by a government agency, then all have the right to be so endorsed. Or, there will only be one religion, that which is sponsored by the government. This was the case for so many years in Europe with the Catholic Church having sole say over the lives of so many people as to what they could believe, and should believe. It resulted in the dark ages and the persecution of people who had knowledge that could have benefited their fellow Man, but conflicted with the official teachings of the Church. This situation set us back a thousand years in the development of Mankind's base of knowledge and kept science confined to the dark basements of the occult practitioners who were accused of black magic, and heresy.

Our founding fathers had this in their backgrounds and fought to give us the wisdom to prevent this from happening over here.

Freedom OF religion also means the right to freedom FROM religion. If you are a Muslim fanatic this will not be good news to you. Likewise, if you have found The Way you may want all others to share your joy. But having the government endorse your viewpoint is just too dangerous and could lead to an all or nothing policy that favors the religion of the elected sent to govern, at the expense of those who do not believe in that religious viewpoint.

If you live in a country that allows you to celebrate your choice of religious belief in any way you see fit, why must there be a heavy-handed move to get a religious viewpoint displayed in government offices. Any religious viewpoint.

Thus, separation of church and state is to protect your right to your religious viewpoint, and mine, though they are different, from any endorsement by those with the elected power to make one or the other the standard. This is not and never was a Christian government. It was a government composed of mostly Christians at the time of its conception who believed that government should not in any way interfere with or endorse a particular religious viewpoint.

Arguing over why a picture of a religious icon, be it Jesus or Mohamed, should be allowed to be displayed in a publicly financed government building, misses the point entirely. Which icon? All, side by side on the wall, why?

Leave the religious endorsements to the private sector, where you are free to convince anyone who will listen to join your point of view. But don't allow those with the power we grant them to govern us to make any moves to support one viewpoint over another, or you may wake up one day to find that only one such viewpoint is now the official one and all others are forever banned as less than the official cannon.

Our founding fathers fought for the right to make a country on this side of the pond where that would never happen again. Christians beware! If you are out voted by an influx of others with a totally differing viewpoint, you may lose the right to practice your religion at all. See the countries that have such as the Taliban and other of its ilk. Try and conduct a religious ceremony that conflicts with the official rules in that country. Not likely.

For that reason the people who pledged their fortunes and sacred honor to found this country were so afraid of any government sponsored activities that could lead to the establishment of one supremely advantaged religion over all others.

Let freedom ring on this enormously important topic, on The 4th of July, at this time of remembrance of our country's founding, for the purpose of providing a haven to all people, who are welcome here and can come and celebrate their religious viewpoints in peace and harmony without controlling those who do not share in one particular viewpoint.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: patrask,

Good morning Mr. Patrask (Phil!)
And a Happy Fourth of July to ALL!
.......... * * ........ * *

**__**___*_____***__________***____*__*_* *

Now, I am not a student of American history any more than the next guy. I only know a few trivial bits of info, like the Declaration of Independence came down to one deciding polled vote, from Pennsylvania.

But as I look at photos of court buildings, and state buildings, I see references to God everywhere chisled in stone. I see references to the Ten commandments etched in old marble. One of the signers of the Declaration of Independence was a Chaplain, and had the phrase ..."endowed by our Creator with certain unalienable rights..." penned in. It seems nowadays (well, it more than seems)...when someone wants to place something just like what was placed in olden days upon rock, in Government institutions, the ACLU says NO! Ten Commandments offend 'some' people in legislature positions because it offends their personal life. There is still a Chaplain present in Congress, who prays Congress into session each morning. You still put your hand on the Bible in many courtrooms across the Nation. Today most practicing Muslims will not do it.

Read John Adams writings on who deserves Freedom under the writs and laws of this country. It's very offensive to most in the popular culture.

_______________________________________________________________

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Nard Kordell,

Right you are, Nardster.
Another popular misconception is that the framers of the Constitution were all deists. In fact, only one was a deist, and he later converted! I can list all these folks and their religious affiliations if you like.

As for me, I spent this 4th working in the yard all day. Phew! Of course, I was faithful to tradition: put the flag out, and listened to "Stan Freberg Presents The United States Of America"!

Many of the founding fathers were con-men, brilliant con-men, including Ben Franklin. Mister Franklin was in charge of the propoganda machine behind the virtually worthless money which the colonies began printing. He was responsible for the images and slogans which appeared on the bogus notes.

Did You Know???
Early in The Revolution the Brits were often characterized as or represented by the eagle AND the snake, while the colonists were given less prestigious characterizations such as the ferret, the mongoose, and the beaver. That was also Ben. He was going for the symbolism of the hard working, unassuming, resourcefulness of those furry animals against the noble, mighty, all-seeing, streamlined sleekness of The British Empire. Then we became the eagle. Funny.

================================================

grasstains:
Since you mentioned Benjamin Franklin, worth mentioning he was NOT a saint. Estimates float around out in the book world of as many as 70 children. As Ambassador, he travelled the world widely and had women in many ports. His idea of God is cumbersome and self-centered.

A great inventor, however: pot-bellied stove, bi-focals, the movable library, etc. How about swimming fins? Yep! The odometer as well as creating that dreadful Daylight Saving Time we all enjoy!

As to bogus notes, Good Grief! There was a WAR going on! They were all about to be hanged once the English got a hold of their necks. They laughed about who would get the noose first. This was wilder than the Wild West There were no laws in place, per se. This was a rebellion first magnitude. Sort of an early version of the internet in real life?

I'm going to have to agree with Patrask here, and say that I am for a complete separation of church and state. Just looking over the history of the western world, nothing but trouble---and disaster, even---seems to come from the combining of religion and politics. (The extremely bloody history of England being a prime example.)

For every argument stating that the founding fathers were Christians, there are counter-arguments like the one found here: Deists

As for that oft-repeated statement from the more fundementalist-type of Christians, that the phrase "separation of church and state" does not appear in the constitution, well, I would counter with the idea that the word "trinity" does not appear in the Bible, and yet the entire Christian religion is based on that concept. Likewise, I think the US government is based on the idea of keeping itself separate from any specific religious branch of thought...

theoctobercopuntry:
Ooo, Sorry! The word "trinity" does not appear in the Bible, but the REALITY of 3 Gods as one does! Christ referred to the burning bush that Moses talked to as He himself talking to Moses. (Old Testament meets New Testament. POW!)

Before Jesus was Jesus, he was called the Word. Read, John 1, vs 1: ".... in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God!" Christ referred to God as a Spirit, and that those who worship God must worship him in Spirit.... referring to the 3rd Person. ( It's too late in the night for a Bible lesson. Been a long day. But, oh well....
Trinity is a simple word to get a handle on the Three Persons in One God. Now the Jehovah Witnesses decided to play around with the original language and thus change the meanings. Now Jesus is no longer God, but a god...and a Jehovah witness must work his way into heaven. The Mormons changed the language and, for instance, Christ is no longer sufficient for doing something that eradicates your sin. You have to do something, as well. For instance, when Gary Gilmore (see Norman Mailer's book, 'The Executioner's Song' ) was condemned to death, he had to be shot with guns. Since he drew blood in his murders, he had to shed blood as well. And so he could not be electrocuted or experience lethal injection. He had to be shot. And was.)

Changes in the 'concep't of seperation of Church and State occured little by little thru the many decades by people offended that God controls lives. This concept of seperation of Church and State is not today what it was in the start of this country. All the evidence is there for anyone willing to spend time looking at it.

Good evening, Nard! I think you perhaps misunderstood my point. I wasn't arguing against the Trinity, merely saying that just because that precise term does not appear in the Bible, it does not necessarily follow that it is not a driving force behind the entire message of the New Testament. Likewise, just because the term "separation of church and state" doesn't appear in the constitution, does not mean the principle does not underly the foundation of the US government.

I'm afraid that this is a topic you and I will never agree upon! I honestly do not think the US was founded on Christian principles. The form of the government itself is based upon Greek and Roman ideals, and has nothing to do with Christianity. While religious freedom was desired by the founders of this country, it is only one of many freedoms they sought---the country was not begun to try and spread Christianity, or anything to that effect. The Puritans who came to New England certainly came here to escape religious persecution---but then they in turn were as bitterly intolerant to other forms of faith as others had been to their own. They combined their religion with their early government---with the result that (it has been said half-jokingly) the other New England states were rapidly populated with people fleeing Puritan rule in Massachusetts. I simply do not see any good come from combining politics and religion in any form.

As for the ten commandments being displayed in government buildings, well... Those have to do with a specific religion, so why should they be there? To quote from another site:
"The first four Commandments are religious edicts having nothing to do with law or ethical behavior. Only three (homicide, theft, and perjury) are relevant to current American law, and have existed in cultures long before Moses. If Americans honored the commandment against "coveting," free enterprise would collapse! The Supreme Court has ruled that posting the Ten Commandments in public schools is unconstitutional.

Our secular laws, based on the human principle of "justice for all," provide protection against crimes, and our civil government enforces them through a secular criminal justice system."

And as for the icon of Jesus in a court building, well again, why should it be there? Statues of Vishnu or Buddha would be just as appropriate in that setting, but I'll bet there would be a fuss if they were included.

The web-site (and related links) I mentioned in my previous post sums up my viewpoint pretty well. I do not believe I am against Christianity at all, but I am absolutely against any combination of government and religion, after reading about what horrors such unions have spawned.

And as for the thought that "This concept of seperation of Church and State is not today what it was in the start of this country. All the evidence is there for anyone willing to spend time looking at it." Well... I would likewise say, that the evidence is there for anyone willing to look for it, that many of the founding fathers were most definitely not deeply religious Christians---just the opposite, in fact.... So, I guess you and I really will have to "agree to disagree," because I doubt either of us will alter the other's viewpoint at all! (I write all this in a friendly manner, I hope you understand---I'm not trying to get all confrontational or anything like that...)

For every argument stating that the founding fathers were Christians, there are counter-arguments like the one found here: Deists

Thank you for the link to Freethought. I have looked at the site and found much there to support my views that we are currently heading in the wrong direction toward state sponsored religion - again.

If a misconception is repeated enough times it can become a truth in the minds of those who will not take the time to research on their own. This is why the present time of mass media is so dangerous. A single viewpoint, such as that the Founding Fathers were all Christians, can become a defacto truth, unless those who have the knowledge also have access to the media to counter that position.

I am all for the freedom OF religion, any belief system that does not teach hate or harm to fellowmen, but I never want to see a state sponsored religion take hold again. We have been down that road and it is a path of suffering in the very name of the God that it supposes to worship.

Please, do a little research and find out what the Founding Fathers actually said and why they so feared establishment of religion by law. It is in your own best interest to preserve your right to worship your creator as you see fit, by always standing up for the concept of separation of church and state, as Jefferson stated, as if a wall was thereby introduced.

To All,
Scroll a tad to True or False: Founding Fathers Christian?
http://watkins.gospelcom.net/foundingfathers.htm

Enlightening reading: "Christianity On Trial" by
Vincent Carroll and David Shiflett.
It has come to pass that Christianity is the only religion that is really fair game for attack and blame, especially in America; and most especially in the celebrity-adoring entertainment-oriented media.

Ever read "The Closing Of The American Mind" by the late Allan Bloom? Celebrity has become the only criterion for authority. The "live earth" thing is a case in point.

I was taken aback by how appropriate for today is the Wilberforce quote I posted in the "quote of the day" thread (q.v.).

I doubt very much if our country is ever going to embrace a "state sposored religion", unless it's (*gulp!*) Islam.

The Bolsheviks were pretty successful, as were the Nazis in replacing "state religions" (Orthodoxy in the former case and Lutheranism in the latter) with what really amounted to their own; for a time anyway.

Nard, ever make the connection between the Russelites (Jehova's Witnesses) and Arius?