Doug Spaulding:

Christ taught re-incarnation!?

Absurd!

If that were so, what possible need for Christ? Then what you are saying is Christ's work was not finished. As if you have to go thru life again, like many in India and other cultures believe. In India there are 10,000+ gods...for everything.

If you are born-again, your second death (the physical death) springs you into the life you acquired when you were born-again (after the first death). Re-incarnation is a belief people come up with when they cannot fathom Christ's complete love, because of the lack of the Holy Spirit..

Does this following passage sound like re-incarnation?

> 2 Corinthian 5 vs: 4, 5 <
Our dying body makes us groan and sigh, but it's not that we want to die and have no body at all. We want to slip into our new heavenly body, like new clothing, so that this dying body will be swallowed up by eternal life. God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.

Yeah, the idea of reincarnation is a lot more comforting for us I-wanna-do-what-I-want-and-don't-tell-me-I-can't-nyaa-nyaa-nyaa Americans than the idea of a Last Judgement!
Again, this really caught on here in the '60s with folks like Yogananda, Meher Baba, etc, etc, etc.
Say! I think I'll "discover" some "hidden" and/or "suppressed" "sayings" myself that condone my desire for a more Sybaritic lifestyle!

quote:

Originally posted by Nard Kordell:

Christ taught re-incarnation!?

Absurd!

Does this following passage sound like re-incarnation?

This one does: Matthew 11:13-14.

Actually, there are several Bible verses that affirm the reality of reincarnation.

This episode in the Bible where Jesus identified John the Baptist as the reincarnation of Elijah the prophet is one of the clearest statements which Jesus made concerning reincarnation.

"For all the prophets and the law have prophesied until John. And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who was to come." (Matthew 11:13-14)

In the above passage, Jesus clearly identifies John the Baptist as the reincarnation of Elijah the prophet. Later in Matthew's gospel Jesus reiterates it.

"And the disciples asked him, saying, 'Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?' But he answered them and said, 'Elijah indeed is to come and will restore all things. But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also shall the Son of Man suffer at their hand.' Then the disciples understood that he had spoken of John the Baptist." (Matthew 17:10-13)

In very explicit language, Jesus identified John the Baptist as the reincarnation of Elijah. Even his disciples understood what Jesus was saying. This identification of John to be the reincarnation of Elijah is very important when it comes to Bible prophecy. By identifying John with Elijah, Jesus identified himself as the Messiah. The Hebrew scriptures mentions specific signs that would precede the coming of the Messiah. One of them is that Elijah will return first.

The first great Father of the early orthodox Church was Origen (A.D. 185-254) who was the first person since Paul to develop a system of theology around the teachings of Jesus. Origen was an ardent defender of pre-existence and reincarnation. Pre-existence is the religious concept of the soul as not being created at birth; rather the soul existed before birth in heaven or in a past life on earth. Origen taught that pre-existence is found in Hebrew scriptures and the teachings of Jesus.

Origen was a disciple of Clement of Alexandria who was a disciple of the apostle Peter. Clement and Origen wrote about receiving secret teachings of Jesus handed down from the apostles. One of these secret teachings was the concept of physical and spiritual rebirth. The existence of secret teachings and mysteries from Jesus is recorded in the Bible.

The doctrines of pre-existence and reincarnation existed as secret teachings of Jesus until they were declared a heresy by the Roman Church in 553 A.D. It was at this time that the Roman Church aggressively destroyed competing teachings and so-called heresies within the Church. Along with the destruction of so called "unorthodox" teachings came the destruction of Jews, Gnostics, and ultimately anyone who stood in the way of the Inquisition and Crusades.

John 9:1-3:

"As he passed by he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, 'Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, 'Neither he nor his parents sinned; it is so that the works of God might be made visible through him.'"

This suggests that the man would have had some opportunity to sin prior to birth, which presupposes the pre-existence of the soul in a situation where there was free will and the ability to commit sin. Jesus replies that in this case neither the man nor his parents sinned, but he does not rebuke the disciples in any way for their belief that it would have been possible for the man to sin prior to birth. You've got to ask yourself why? It has a ring of truth, does it not? The Ring of Truth = The Conscience = The Holy Spirit = Wisdom = Sophia = The Feminine Aspect of the Godforce.

There are more of course, but I don't really see the point. The OT is full of them, and here's one:

Jeremiah 1:4-5:

"The word of the LORD came to me thus: Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I dedicated you, a prophet to the nations I appointed you."

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Doug Spaulding,

Your responses are from the dark corners of those theology centers that fill the young brains with gourds of holey nonsense. My shoe has a shoelace, and that is in itself evidence that worms become laces for boots. Take notice. See how similiar they both look. That is about how you sound.

Do you accept Jesus as Messiah? Accept Jesus as God? Not from what you have posted. In that case, throw away the first chapter of the book of John. You accept that fact there is judgment at death? And how are you going to be judged? By the Father, or the Son? There are two judges, you know. You do not accept that there was even a fall of creation. Possible sin prior to birth? Where did you dig up that posturing? David said he was conceived with sin. All of creation lies in the arms of the wicked one. Did you skip over that passage? Did you skip over the passages that say the devil has been given rule over this earth?

Do you realize you are a sinner through and through and are absolutely unable to please God in any way possible? Did they teach you in theology school that you can please God if you try hard enough? Well, if you believe that, start tearing out the pages of scripture. Start with the entire book of Ephesians. That's a good start. Personally, I have no use for guys from that famous Malarky Press and Divinity School.

Button, button, buttons. Peggotty, don’t breath so deep. Button, buttons, who pressed the buttons? Control, control! Opinion? Do we actually have one? Our secret. We hides it. Peggotty, oh, Peggotty? God love the woman. She’s popped a few laughing.

Noel!

On the subject of Christ, reincarnation, and button-popping: Some years ago we received a letter from my mom's brother in which he declared that Jesus was not the Son of God but "a child of God like you and me" and that "the individual known as Jesus" has been reincarnated, as everyone will be, and currently runs a delicatessen in Brooklyn! We busted a few buttons laughing at that one!

Doug Spaulding:

If you want to take the re-incarnation road, then there is absolutely no need for Christ, His death, His ressurection. Just believe in yourself.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil Knox:
Do you accept Jesus as Messiah? In that case, throw away the first chapter of the book of John. Did you skip over the passages that say the devil has been given rule over this earth?

Jesus was the Messiah (do you know what Messiah means?).

The Gospel of John is one of the greatest of the Gnostic gospels - that fine group of men who decided on the canon let that one slip right thru the cracks!

The "devil" is a creation of the Roman church of the middle ages, used as leverage in the war against anyone who would not conform. If there is an all good (God), there must be an all evil (Satan) - hogwash! The scriptures know nothing of this "creature".

But let's talk about something else - I really don't want this to get out of control (I could type volumes on this subject, and I really haven't the time right now).

Sorry.

Good grief, Doug: Exactly what did Jesus expel from that fellow in the caves that ran around naked and cut himself with stones...?

Or, more specifically, who exactly did Jesus say, amongst his friends, had a devil? Fabrication of the Roman Church? Naw!

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Getting off this topic for a moment:

Went to see Gibson's 'Apocalypto' last evening. Did he get Ariel Durant's message across? Think I'd have to sit through this massacre one more time to fully say, in my opinion, yes or no. But check out the attached. Most interesting about Mayan's calculating the event upcoming for the year 2012, and the center of our galaxy.

http://www.aztlan.net/apocalypto.htm

Nard,
Now, really, don't you know that whatever scriptures that support traditional soteriological Christianity were conspiratorially modified and edited by those evil folks at the Councils? Yeah, sure many had suffered persecution, missing arms, eyes, tongues, loved ones, etc; but they didn't know any better! What was important was to conceive a way to deceive subsequent generations so we wouldn't know that we'll get another chance!
What, exactly their motive was it's not clear, but Who knows? Maybe, if your Karma is good, you may come back next time as a Brahmin!

Chap,
Barkis is willin!

God bless Barkis and God help us, everyone!

I saw a great bumpersticker the other day which read "God Bless Everyone--No Exceptions"

And read a fabulous quote which went "Kind and giving, all the rest is treason."

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Current favorites that I have seen recently on the road. "Visualize your turn signal", "Kill your TV", "Oh just evolve", "Dangerously Undermedicated".

Sceneshifter:

How were you able to change your posting name and keep the number of posts from the previous name...?

Hal knows that its still really me.