quote:

Originally posted by Mr. Dark:
Just disagree with your opening assumption--that we are in the animal kingdom in the same way the lion is in the animal kingdom. Man has a rational capacity not found in other animals and man has a capacity for free will, which allows him to struggle with and overcome natural inclinations. This is why rape, murder, stealing, etc. are wrong, Pete. We have reason and we have will. When a 50 year old man rapes a 13 year old girl, we are justifiably angry. When a lion kills a lamb for dinner, we are not justifiably angry. Your initial assumption is wrong, and it makes everything else after it wrong. You have to get the foundation right. This is even exclusive of religion. Very, very simplistic thinking on this one.

The doctrine of original sin is variously interpreted. I find some of those interpretations shocking. I agree with your observation that when we look at a newborn babe, it is difficult to reconcile it with any guilt. I suppose that, if you see original sin in the sense that we are born into a fallen world, fine. But if you're trying to claim that that two-day old is individually guilty of sin, you lose me. So what do we mean by original sin?

Please read my essay again. The process of build, test, analyze and re-build is done under what you call free-will. rape, murder, stealing etc., are not inherent behaviors, they do not occur in all human societies. They are learned behaviors that occur in those societies that allow the teaching of such. This happens in the animal kingdom as well. Chimpanzees do and Bonobos do not. That is probably both genetics and learned behavior at work. That is exactly why we , as Humans, can improve ourselves, because we can exercise our intellect, our free-will, and change ourselves as we live. All things, animal or vegatable, can do this as well, each to its own limitations based on genetics. It is called living, and change is the hallmark of life. Thank you for reinforcing my thoughts.

My emphasis here is on the inherent ability to change ourselves without having to get a manual from some prescribed philosophy that comes with restrictions and dogma attached. Peace be to all who struggle. I too struggle and change each day, hopefully in a direction that makes me a better example of an enlightened human being with the will to be free.

BTY I am Phil, not Pete.

quote:

Originally posted by patrask:

My emphasis here is on the inherent ability to change ourselves without having to get a manual from some prescribed philosophy that comes with restrictions and dogma attached. Peace be to all who struggle. I too struggle and change each day, hopefully in a direction that makes me a better example of an enlightened human being with the will to be free.

BTY I am Phil, not Pete.

Interesting to note, Phil, that as a Christian I do not follow the Ten Commandments, or rules of dogma, or philosophy, or manual of restrictions as you describe.

If I break only one (1) of the commandments, let's say the 2nd one, Jewish law says I broke them all and equally responsible for breaking all the other 9. Let's figure this out for a moment: What's the use of even trying to keep the Ten Commandments. Trying is just not good enough! If I read my Bible correctly, it says I have to be as perfect as God to get into heaven. Well, come on now be reasonable. Trying your hardest and with all the huffing and puffing and following all those rules of the road to heaven just ain 't going to cut it.

And trying to be my best and better each day doesn't seem to cut it either. Because scripture warns that people who think they can get into heaven and boast to others what a good job they were at being a good boy or girl, just won't fly there. In fact, you'll be tossed out on your ear. (so to speak, of course. Don't take that literally. Doug Spaulding wouldn't)

So where does that leave ME? Phil!? I know I am a Christian and I know I am going to heaven. What's my secret?

I never did like the verse that said thinking about something wrong is as bad as doing it. How else can you overcome temptation if you don't at least consider doing bad things and then NOT do them? If just thinking about the offense is as bad, why not commit it since it's already counted against you anyhow? What worries me about anti-religion types is what context do they have to NOT just run wild and do whatever to whoever?

Phil, sorry about the name glitch. I don't see Biblical truth in as restrictive a way as you appear to. I'm in law school now and while we have law, we also have to study fact patterns, will, intent, etc. The gospel is a combination of truths (dogmas, to use a word you appear to abhor), guidelines, commandments, encouraging poetry, testimonies, etc. Why do you see the Bible as so inflexible and dogmatic? I certainly don't.

"But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not subject to the law." Galatians 5:18

The Spirit always leads us into right relationships which is really what the entire Bible is about. Right relationship with God, with ourselves, with each other, with our environment. Unfortunately, living this way is much more difficult than the self-righteousness that comes from being able to follow the law.

How might this impact the way we pray for Ray?

quote:

Originally posted by embroiderer:

quote:

Originally posted by patrask:

My emphasis here is on the inherent ability to change ourselves without having to get a manual from some prescribed philosophy that comes with restrictions and dogma attached. Peace be to all who struggle. I too struggle and change each day, hopefully in a direction that makes me a better example of an enlightened human being with the will to be free.

BTY I am Phil, not Pete.

Interesting to note, Phil, that as a Christian I do not follow the Ten Commandments, or rules of dogma, or philosophy, or manual of restrictions as you describe.

If I break only one (1) of the commandments, let's say the 2nd one, Jewish law says I broke them all and equally responsible for breaking all the other 9. Let's figure this out for a moment: What's the use of even trying to keep the Ten Commandments. Trying is just not good enough! If I read my Bible correctly, it says I have to be as perfect as God to get into heaven. Well, come on now be reasonable. Trying your hardest and with all the huffing and puffing and following all those rules of the road to heaven just ain 't going to cut it.

And trying to be my best and better each day doesn't seem to cut it either. Because scripture warns that people who think they can get into heaven and boast to others what a good job they were at being a good boy or girl, just won't fly there. In fact, you'll be tossed out on your ear. (so to speak, of course. Don't take that literally. Doug Spaulding wouldn't)

So where does that leave ME? Phil!? I know I am a Christian and I know I am going to heaven. What's my secret?

You have FAITH.

I am a skeptic and do not trust faith to get me through. I am not worried about the next life, that is out of my hands, I can only deal now with the life I have by attempting to better myself, improve my behavior and be kind to my fellows and fellow creatures. Steven Covey had a thought in his famous book, The Seven habits of Highly Successful People, paraphrasing, write your own epitaph and then live your life to ensure that the epitaph will be true. I am the most imperfect of people, with many flaws and I cause pain when I do not wish to for others. But, I will improve myself each day and forgive myself for those errors and I can then pass on with a clear conscience that I did my best to live a good and honest life. I worry that too much emphasis is placed on the next life, in many religions, and not enough on the here and now.

patrask! Nope. I have no faith.

blackdog is close to the answer.

The bulls-eye answer is: Christ gives me HIS faith.

This life with all its tribulations troubles pains sufferings and sickness less than a moment on the clock of what comes next: clockless eternity.

quote:

Originally posted by Mr. Dark:
Phil, sorry about the name glitch. I don't see Biblical truth in as restrictive a way as you appear to. I'm in law school now and while we have law, we also have to study fact patterns, will, intent, etc. The gospel is a combination of truths (dogmas, to use a word you appear to abhor), guidelines, commandments, encouraging poetry, testimonies, etc. Why do you see the Bible as so inflexible and dogmatic? I certainly don't.

I see it as just the opposite of dogmatic. It is full of something for everyone and every occasion, at times conflicting itself. Of what use is that? For too long Mankind has held up the Bible and quoted from it to justify the most heinous of behaviors. Other religions do the same with their sacred writings. All think they are right, each thinks the other evil and misguided and the enemy. That is a prescription for, of all things, WAR. Since all religions are wrong, since all cannot be right, I will not bother with any, but I wish to point out the incredible irony in the belief in one religion at the expense of peace on this Earth.

Love is the answer and the Golden Rule is all anyone needs to live a life in relative peace with other fellows, Human or animal.

quote:

Originally posted by embroiderer:

quote:

Originally posted by patrask:

My emphasis here is on the inherent ability to change ourselves without having to get a manual from some prescribed philosophy that comes with restrictions and dogma attached. Peace be to all who struggle. I too struggle and change each day, hopefully in a direction that makes me a better example of an enlightened human being with the will to be free.

BTY I am Phil, not Pete.

Interesting to note, Phil, that as a Christian I do not follow the Ten Commandments, or rules of dogma, or philosophy, or manual of restrictions as you describe.

If I break only one (1) of the commandments, let's say the 2nd one, Jewish law says I broke them all and equally responsible for breaking all the other 9. Let's figure this out for a moment: What's the use of even trying to keep the Ten Commandments. Trying is just not good enough! If I read my Bible correctly, it says I have to be as perfect as God to get into heaven. Well, come on now be reasonable. Trying your hardest and with all the huffing and puffing and following all those rules of the road to heaven just ain 't going to cut it.

And trying to be my best and better each day doesn't seem to cut it either. Because scripture warns that people who think they can get into heaven and boast to others what a good job they were at being a good boy or girl, just won't fly there. In fact, you'll be tossed out on your ear. (so to speak, of course. Don't take that literally. Doug Spaulding wouldn't)

So where does that leave ME? Phil!? I know I am a Christian and I know I am going to heaven. What's my secret?

The Ten Commandments were written for a people who needed rules to transform themselves into a nation of Jews, supposedly originating in captivity. The Torah says captivity in Egypt, but the historical evidence points to the Torah being generated while the Jewish people were then captive in Babylon, and much of Surmarian history was adapted and included in the Torah. As to the story itself, I cannot trust its validity, its historicity, for reasons that only sufficient reading will uncover.

For me, commandments one through five are irrelevant, and pertain to one relgion. The remaining five are just plain common sense for civilized people to follow.

As you have probably heard, rules are made to be broken, that is why we have lawyers to contest the effects of breaking laws and hopefully to result in justice.

The breaking of each of the remaining five commandments can be at times justified, to spare someone pain or to right a wrong, etc. I think it all comes down the Golden Rule again. What more do I really need to survive and live a guilt-free life?

http://www.the-ten-commandment...en-commandments.html

BTW: I have had a running battle with my Mother-in-law, who is Jewish, about commandment number four. Either you follow the commandment and do no work on the Sabbath, or you do not follow it. The use of a Sabbath Goy to get around this commandment by supposedly pious Jewish people is the height of hypocracy in my humble opinion. I have a T-shirt that says Shabbos Goy, but I have not had the courage to wear it. Fights over these kind of rules are just a crock.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: patrask,

You just don't get it. You HAVE to keep the Ten commandments. Christ did and still does. But he was the only one that NEVER broke any of the Ten commandments. Ever. Thats why thru Christ each of us also keeps the Ten commandments. Not by ourselves. In the natural, in the earthly, we CANNOT keep the commandments. I don't. Christ does, for me and thru me.

quote:

Originally posted by patrask:
historical evidence points to the Torah being generated while the Jewish people were then captive in Babylon, and much of Surmarian history was adapted and included in the Torah.

Sumerian and later Babylonian mythology are two drastically different mythologies.

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..................Touching Base with all Christian believers who
..............have been influenced by or simply enjoy reading
..........Ray Bradbury.

If you are one, asking here that thruout the week we spend time in prayer to God the Father on behalf of Ray Bradbury; asking that the Holy Spirit open the eyes of Bradbury's heart to see the great mystery of faith in Christ, and the unmeasurable strength of grace.

Pray as you will for him, but in partricular that God open the way for Ray to experience that great love of God's gift, his Son Jesus Christ.

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....In 2nd Corinthians, Chapter 5, verse 18, it reads:
"All this newness of life is from God, who brought us back to himself through what Christ did. And God
has given us the task of reconciling people to him."

....And when you have your Bible open,
read over the context of the above verse: 2nd Corinthians 5, verses 11-21.

................~Thanks to everyone on this important prayer request

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NOTE!
...Ray says he no longer believes in prayer. That gives insight into where Bradbury's trust is not based. He often says in his talks that the universe is a mystery, and that we are all gods. Far from the Baptist beliefs he held as a child.

...And so this request for prayer for Ray, from the pivotal point of our helplessness to do anything but ask Our Father to intervene and use what instruments He deems the best to win the heart of Ray.
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Did my goodwilled intentions cause a debate? I say! No more weekend vacations for this poor soul.

Please everyone, let us turn away from this childish feuding, it is always good to talk over scripture, but never in a manner such as this. Let us all behave and more importantly:

Shut-up!

Let us return to the matter at hand, and pray for the well-being of Ray Bradbury, and I am sure God (captilized out of respect, not out of belief) will watch over him in the days that follow.

My regards,
Kukai Aoki
Quite possibly the only Non-Theist on this Topic

quote:

Originally posted by Kukai_Aoki:
Did my goodwilled intentions cause a debate?

Not at all, just our ongoing bickering!

Good grief.

Just buy his books and celebrate his wonder, imagination, love, and humanity.