quote:

Originally posted by dandelion:
Maybe you can explain how Forrest J. Ackerman could be an atheist who professed not to believe in an afterlife for himself but apparently did for other people.

.....Since we are mentioning atheism, let me speak the biblical term: we are all born as sinners, which basically is defined as...the inability to meet God's standards and expectations acting by ourselves. Again, biblically speaking, it is written that the universe is in sin, and all of creation. With the intuitive understanding within oneself of the wrongs, the misses, the left undones, etc etc etc etc... if one doesn't see connection to a complete world without sin, or at least to the self that is unharmed by sin, I'd say one, instilled with the spark of human decency that we are all born with, exercises it not to oneself, but to his fellow man. Thus, Ackerman could sway, "I hope you enjoy whatever joys there is in whatever there is called an afterlife, but not me. No way. I don't deserve it, etc".

....I am suggesting that might have been the mind-set of Forrest Ackerman. As an atheist, what reality did he have an escape towards, and from the very nature we are all born into... other than as escape back into one's own futile condition and struggle?

quote:

Originally posted by Nard Kordell:
...we are all born as sinners...

No we're not. We're born innocent and learn how to be evil as we live our lives.

quote:

Originally posted by Nard Kordell:
sinners, which basically is defined as...the inability to meet God's standards and expectations acting by ourselves.

Is it?

quote:

Originally posted by Doug Spaulding:

quote:

Originally posted by Nard Kordell:
...we are all born as sinners...

No we're not. We're born innocent and learn how to be evil as we live our lives.

Doug Spaulding, you can make it up as you go along, but scripture makes this statement:You are born a sinner, and the whole world rests in the arms of the wicked one.

It further writes that if you don' t believe you are a sinner, you are a liar, and your father is the father of liars.

I can start taking the time and pulling out the exact references to these statements, but you know better. You know what it says. But you like it your way.

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Nico~ That's how scripture defines sin. It's from an old archery term, "sin", meaning....missing the mark. It means, you just can't, in your natural state, please God. You will always miss something, run short of something, be a few minutes off, fall far short of giving God glory in your life, and always, always, unable to do each moment what he asks. Whereas Christ, without sin said this: "I always do what my Father does, and only do what I see he does."

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..................Touching Base with all Christian believers who
..............have been influenced by or simply enjoy reading
..........Ray Bradbury.

If you are one, asking here that thruout the week we spend time in prayer to God the Father on behalf of Ray Bradbury; asking that the Holy Spirit open the eyes of Bradbury's heart to see the great mystery of faith in Christ, and the unmeasurable strength of grace.

Pray as you will for him, but in partricular that God open the way for Ray to experience that great love of God's gift, his Son Jesus Christ.

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....In 2nd Corinthians, Chapter 5, verse 18, it reads:
"All this newness of life is from God, who brought us back to himself through what Christ did. And God
has given us the task of reconciling people to him."

....And when you have your Bible open,
read over the context of the above verse: 2nd Corinthians 5, verses 11-21.

................~Thanks to everyone on this important prayer request

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NOTE!
...Ray says he no longer believes in prayer. That gives insight into where Bradbury's trust is not based. He often says in his talks that the universe is a mystery, and that we are all gods. Far from the Baptist beliefs he held as a child.

...And so this request for prayer for Ray, from the pivotal point of our helplessness to do anything but ask Our Father to intervene and use what instruments He deems the best to win the heart of Ray.
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quote:

Originally posted by Nard Kordell:
...you can make it up as you go along, but scripture makes this statement:You are born a sinner, and the whole world rests in the arms of the wicked one.

Never take scripture literally!

Hope you are well old friend.

quote:

Originally posted by Doug Spaulding:

Never take scripture literally!

Oh, come now! What in the world is that supposed to mean?

From all your previous postings, you certainly reject nearly every single basic fundamental truth in Christianity. Is that what happens when you don't take much of scripture literally?

There are metaphors, there are proverbs, there are stories and Christ gave stories to provide an easier way to explain and understand truth.

But when David said he was a sinner from his mother's womb, he is explaining the fall of mankind in need of a loving God who restores man to his original intent and purpose.

Face it: Do you really know you confuse the uneducated and will be held accountable?

quote:

Originally posted by Nard Kordell:
From all your previous postings, you certainly reject nearly every single basic fundamental truth in Christianity. Is that what happens when you don't take much of scripture literally?

Fortunately, yes.

Still hope you are well.

Doug Spaudling! I never asked you this: exactly what sort of religion do you practice? It ain't Christian. Whatta you call it?

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Well? Naw! Oh, maybe! Depends.

The question of interpretation is always so interesting. Both extremes (NEVER take scripture literally or ALWAYS take scripture literally) seem to miss the mark. All of life seems to depend on balance--without it we can't walk, and without it we can't find a "healthy" life path.

In law school, one of the things that comes up over and over is that the law is interpreted on the basis of context, individual fact patterns, prejudices of the judges/judicial panels, etc.

I think there are parts of scripture that ARE to be taken literally. They give law. They mandate doctrines. They mandate behaviors. And there are parts that are clearly parables (Christ explained the meaning of several himself--making it clear that many of them were MEANT to be interpreted, and NOT taken literally). But to say that we should NEVER take scripture literally seems a stretch.

Did you really mean that, or were you using hyperbole to make a point?

Probably hyperbole. Meaning that the biggest majority of scripture by far is not literal.

You have to study midrash to really understand scripture. You have to read it through Jewish eyes.

quote:

Originally posted by Nard Kordell:

quote:

Originally posted by dandelion:
Maybe you can explain how Forrest J. Ackerman could be an atheist who professed not to believe in an afterlife for himself but apparently did for other people.

.....Since we are mentioning atheism, let me speak the biblical term: we are all born as sinners, which basically is defined as...the inability to meet God's standards and expectations acting by ourselves. Again, biblically speaking, it is written that the universe is in sin, and all of creation. With the intuitive understanding within oneself of the wrongs, the misses, the left undones, etc etc etc etc... if one doesn't see connection to a complete world without sin, or at least to the self that is unharmed by sin, I'd say one, instilled with the spark of human decency that we are all born with, exercises it not to oneself, but to his fellow man. Thus, Ackerman could sway, "I hope you enjoy whatever joys there is in whatever there is called an afterlife, but not me. No way. I don't deserve it, etc".

....I am suggesting that might have been the mind-set of Forrest Ackerman. As an atheist, what reality did he have an escape towards, and from the very nature we are all born into... other than as escape back into one's own futile condition and struggle?

Nard: I am sorry to so vehemently disagree with you, one of many who feel this way, but the error in this thinking is as follows:

First, we are of and in the animal kingdom, and as such, we are naturally programmed to BE Human. The rest of the problem is in defining what BEing Human is to mean. Is a deer born into sin, a lion for killing it, a vulture for eating the remains? No, they are simply following the genetic programs in their DNA and the learned behavior they received from their fellows and parent creatures.

Second: Being the advanced form of primate that we are, with its benefits of the ability to acquire much knowledge about our environment in which we live, and to make choices about how to use that knowledge, we are left with those choices, how we choose to live with our fellow creatures, Man and other animals. There are only choices, some better than others, to allow us as sentient beings to make better decisions as we gain experience and thus, wisdom.

Third: Without Sin one would not need a redemptive influence, so conviently supplied by the same company that judges us and teaches us that we are defective to begin with. The analog of this situation is the computer virus propagated by the very company who then steps up to offer the protection from that virus. Show me a church, or other religious organization, that starts with the concept that I am borm a perfect being into this world and only through the making of bad choices do I become less perfect; I will join that organization. Sorry, I just do not buy the premiss that I was born with Sin. For what reason would I have been born less than perfectly adapted as a member of my species, to support a system of beliefs that continually reinforces that opinion and then conveniently offers me a patent solution to my imaginary defects?

My answer is to use the standard engineering practice taught to all in school: Built, Test, Analyze and Rebuild. The application of this methodology will result in the betterment of mankind over several cycles of repeated modifications in the programming that we follow as Humans, i.e., what is the best behavior for us all to follow to allow each of us to reach our inherent potential without prejudice against the other?

In summary: If you feel that you have sinned, that may be, but it is not likely that it was original, or built into your programming, but contrarily, was something that you Built and Tested and then you found it wanting and it needed to be modified and you Rebuilt yourself. The world that you envision, that perfect world where all that sin has been eliminated along with those who remained sinners, i.e., Heaven, can be achieved in this universe and in this life by the careful application of our God-given powers of observation, learning and doing to improve our own situations. Yes, we should strive to be as God, in the Name of God, and shoulder our own burdens without the reliance on an outside and future benefit.

That is my stance and, while not yet, or maybe never, perfect, I continually strive toward that goal on my own, as one of the many other creatures on this Earth that have been given the marvelous gift of life by my creator and then left to make choices in how I live that life.

I challenge anyone to look upon a newly born Human child and tell me that it has been born into this world with Original Sin. The Sin, I believe is in the mind of the beholder, not the child.

Just disagree with your opening assumption--that we are in the animal kingdom in the same way the lion is in the animal kingdom. Man has a rational capacity not found in other animals and man has a capacity for free will, which allows him to struggle with and overcome natural inclinations. This is why rape, murder, stealing, etc. are wrong, Pete. We have reason and we have will. When a 50 year old man rapes a 13 year old girl, we are justifiably angry. When a lion kills a lamb for dinner, we are not justifiably angry. Your initial assumption is wrong, and it makes everything else after it wrong. You have to get the foundation right. This is even exclusive of religion. Very, very simplistic thinking on this one.

The doctrine of original sin is variously interpreted. I find some of those interpretations shocking. I agree with your observation that when we look at a newborn babe, it is difficult to reconcile it with any guilt. I suppose that, if you see original sin in the sense that we are born into a fallen world, fine. But if you're trying to claim that that two-day old is individually guilty of sin, you lose me. So what do we mean by original sin?

quote:

Originally posted by Mr. Dark:
The question of interpretation is always so interesting. Both extremes (NEVER take scripture literally or ALWAYS take scripture literally) seem to miss the mark.

"Miss the mark", you say...

Doesn't have the same fire to it as the word sin, does it?

God made you for a purpose and the purpose is to love you. And to be loved back. The old saying goes, God wants a family. And the reason God wants a family is...to show His glory.

He shows it in the deepest parts of the intricacies of the universe, to the nano structure and the designs of simple creatures. Scripture says you can see God in the majesty of mountains and the natural things around you, including the design of your bodies.

There is no mystery to knowing God. Maybe it's a mystery to you and many others. It was always a mystery to me!. The point of beginning to know God has several sharp edges to a multi blade sword. One of them is accepting how stupid you were in the past. That is an ongoing, cross crucifying experience. It's difficult, it's "hell", to say you were wrong. Other times it's a matter of simply accepting what has transpired, that is, a change of mindset has begun. And with the change of mindset, you begin to see a reality for what it is: a right mind.

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