True, Broid.
Another option, of course, is trying to disprove the truth, or simply attempting to run away.

(Some years ago, there was a discussion here with some similarities and a few of the present participants...)

quote:

Originally posted by Phil Knox:
...but what has this to do with the simple plan of salvation?
You have made it into a complicated and complex plan of palpitations.

Come now, Phil. I was unaware that this thread was about the "simple plan of salvation", thread title notwithstanding.

An academic could study basic American History, but then become enthralled with the subject matter therein and take the plunge into the deepest recesses of History available to them.

The same could be said of the amateur theologian - I don't just find the core of the Christ fascinating, I find all things emanating from him fascinating!

He is indeed the bullseye, but the rest of the dartboard is also a marvellous place to explore.

quote:

Originally posted by Braling II:
...Salsipuedes.

I'll let y'all look it up...

"Leave if you can."

quote:

Originally posted by patrask:

I continue to search for the truth.

You've got it friend patrask. Even the Pistic Paul said that he had not yet achieved salvation, but was still "running the race", indicating that it is a lifelong endeavor!

You sound an intelligent fellow.

quote:

Originally posted by embroiderer:
Always searching, always looking, but never coming to the truth.

That's an old Bible verse. When you don't know the Lord, always looking, always searching never coming to know the truth is what prevails.

And when you do know "The LORD", and have a deeper understanding of "The LORD", the search is all the more fascinating.

The more I learn, the more I want to discover. Is there something wrong with this? Is there something wrong with being so "into" God that you constantly want to know more of him/her?

I am always amazed at the amount of Christians I meet who say, "I have found the simple story of the Christ, and now that I know the most important person in the history of the universe, I don't want to know anything else about him."

Wow!

quote:

Originally posted by Braling II:
Some years ago, there was a discussion here with some similarities and a few of the present participants.

Yes, truth always comes back to rear its annoying little head in the end. Again and again.

If the church is not willing to educate the congregation with anything more than "Sunday School pablum", then we will never progress much further than "The Dark Ages", which, unfortunately, we're still in.

We ought to be concerned with what they're teaching the children in Sunday School, as well. Most Church School material is dreadful. Those that seek to be relevant become vapid and ignore the traditions they cannot translate. Those that try to teach the historic content of the Christian story never seem to deal with the critical scholarship of the past 250 years.

Christianity, as we know it, must change or die. And when I say 'change', I don't mean change from the truth to a lie, but rather change back to the truth!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Doug Spaulding,

Doug Spaulding. I read nothing you write that gives me any indication that you know the Lord, as a believing Christian. Simple plan of salvation? You got one? A simple plan of salvation that you can express to someone, say, to patrask, who is looking for truth, and with your explanation permit him to understand how it works? If you are so deep into Jesus and the truth of God, how about just a mild introduction!

Doug Spaulding may be the biggest fruitcake posting religious talk, but, like Voltaire, he has the right to speak his mind, and tho no market dictates the position of Douglas, he is protected by free speech. If someone thinks no one landed on the moon, the Earth is flat, or the American's blew -up Tower 7 at the World Trade so what? Just don't hollar FIRE in a crowded posting board.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil Knox:
Doug Spaulding. I read nothing you write that gives me any indication that you know the Lord, as a believing Christian. Simple plan of salvation? You got one? A simple plan of salvation that you can express to someone, say, to patrask, who is looking for truth, and with your explanation permit him to understand how it works? If you are so deep into Jesus and the truth of God, how about just a mild introduction!

I know how it works, you just give up to Jesus (or any other central figure of a major religion) all that you might like to wonder about and your mind is put at ease - thus salvation is at hand for true believers. It is always more difficult to struggle with the endless search for new knowleldge and truth. But, the Truth will ultimately set one free.

There are those of us who are truly spiritual, but not religious, in that the stories of the world's religions do not ring true, once a scholarly approach is taken to understand them. Wasn't it Pius X that is quoted as saying this myth of Christ has served the Church well? The Truth is the reason The Church had to suppress knowledge, because it knew the Truth and did not want the masses to learn about it. The dark ages did more to slow down the march of intellectual truth and cost Mankind much of its valuable history when the documents that would have provided the enlightenment were so cleverly and systematically distroyed. That is why it has taken so long to get the Dead Sea Scrolls published, too much there to answer for. Same with the Nag Hammadi Library. Now, if only the Library at Alexandra had not been purposely distroyed, we would have access to a much different history than is recorded in the Bible.

My Father was a born-again Christian and felt that he had failed in not succeeding in getting his son to believe as he did. He did not fail, he inspired me to learn all I could about the history and sources of the stories in the Bible. I think, were he still alive, that he would enjoy the discussion we could have and would accept what I have learned. The search for God is neverending, that is our reason for living. Without that we are but lower animals following the genetically programed script in our genes, with no real freedom to chose our path. I keep my mind open to all possibilities and weigh all new information against prior conclusions to enble a more perfect version of the Truth to form in my mind.

patrask: You said, "you just give up to Jesus."

Knowing Jesus requires NOT that you give up, but that you DIE!. Specifically, scripture writes that you are crucified with Christ. Now if I recall thru my history lessons, crucifixion is a struggle of death. Following Christ is also a matter of taking up and carrying your personal cross each hour of each day of each week of each month while dying to self. And in the process of dying to self (sometimes years and years), you continually let God in, and he takes birth in you. Now if I recall my wife in the birthing process, that too was painful. Which is more painful, crucifixion or birthing? May be a toss-up. So, I already have trouble with just the first sentence in your posting.

As to the Dead Sea Scrolls, exactly what information have you read that was not already found in the scripture of today? To the skeptic it authenticated scripture as being unchanged, even to the simpliest accent markings.

Embroiderer:
Sure has the ring of ceremony described in the Egyptian Book of the Dead, wherein the Pharoah
is resurrected to become an Osiris and find a new life in the Duat. Read Gerald Massey, Joseph Weless, et. al. there is much to be found in the land of Egypt.

patrask: I'll just bring-up one all encompassing item that, actually, makes or breaks all of Christianity. It's talked about in the New Testament. Apropos to mention, since Easter is upcoming.

When Jesus Christ was crucified, he was put in the tomb and, as scripture writes, he came back from the dead on the 3rd day, and for over a month afterwards, met with people, ate with them, visited with them, etc. (Interesting to note that it also says that even before Christ came back from the dead, at the time of the crucifixion, people came out of their graves and went home to family).

But now note this: Here is where Christianity exists or doesn't exist. Paul writes that if Christ did NOT come back from the dead, then Christianity is a religion of fools, and Christian are the biggest fools in the world. All of Christianity rides on that one, that single event, not the described miracles, or the insight Christ gave into the hereafter. It's everything about wether the event actually occured. If it didn't, the apostle Paul said we are fools. No discussion. So we have people like Titantic-director Cameron trying to disprove the ressurection. with his tomb findings and film series. All of Christianity would eventually have to fall if the resurrection of Christ could be disproven.

This particular passage from Genesis (I have highlighted key words) has been used as a possible example of man's REAL origin. Some researchers claim the passage shows that the modern form of human life was SEEDED to this planet by a lifeform not of this world.

"And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. (this passage designates a difference between 'men' and a group called 'the sons of God')

And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.(People seldom live this long. However, if DNA manupulation was used to create the life form known as man-on-Earth, it's possible that people WOULD live this long...for some generations...if the DNA was a combination of a longer-living human life form, i.e. visitors. However, it's also possible that the 'sons of God' were actually visitors to Earth, and the 'men' were the humans already here when they arrived.)

There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. (Again, a designation of some difference between 'men' and the 'sons of God.' Why? This has never been fully explained. The statement that the children of these unions became 'mighty men, men of renown' and were referred to as 'giants' is strange. It basically asserts two different types of people, one possibly 'divine'(read: extraterrestial) in nature, the other 'ordinary'.


Well, this would explain a few jarring irregularities about man and his origins, such as HOW mankind suddenly appeared on the planet less than 2 million years ago...while sharks have been around for 70 million years, and some life forms much longer. How could man suddenly appear in the last half-second of geo-history and take over the planet in such a short time?

Answer: Maybe the creature known as 'human' is not originally from this planet. He may have been PLACED here, and the ones that did the PLACING both interacted with their charges, and occasionally returned from time to time to check on them...or as Genesis hints...perhaps to marry a few of the locals and bear them children. The Bible later gives a record of people who supposedly lived as long as 970 years (Methuselah)and as the generations progressed, this life span shortened to more or less normal amounts. Some researchers claim this points to a genetic infusion from beings who may have lived much longer than man...possibly a necessary trait for long-distance space travel.

Theory? Conjecture? Of course. Possible? Certainly.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Robert M Blevins,

Robert M
Blevins:
When you stick to the "book", and don't waver...in other words, don't start making up your own scripture, and often going back to scripture and honestly asking yourself, ...in its 'context', "does it really say that?"...then it's a whole lot of things scripture will springboard you into conjecturing over. Sometimes, we may think of ourselves like ants on a table top, a vast table-cloth-land, created by textile weavers of multi-threaded arts that go unnoticed to the ant that we are, equally unaware of weaver, room, country, world, other than our search for food and the colony of our own. In other words, we're all surrounded by wonder we do not see, and what is expressed to us thru scripture is so we can blink an eye occasionally to the wonder that we could not see otherwise, left on our own.

Well...it's not like my post was original. That quote from Genesis has been used before by researchers.
I KNEW that post would generate some response, though. (lol)

Actually, I try not to get involved in the Creation theory with Christians, because whether or not you believe the Biblical version is a matter of faith. Unfortunately, it doesn't fit the known facts about the geo-history of the Earth. I mean...it DOES sound like a fable made up by ancient writers who were trying to explain their existence.

I've always had a problem with one point concerning the Creation story. Life, as we know it, and some fairly advanced forms of life by the way, have been around for more than a hundred million years. No one has explained to my satisfaction exactly how man appeared at the very last second of geo-time and gained control of the planet.

At most, mankind goes back a few million years, and if you speak of 'modern' man (not cavemen or Cro-Magnon), perhaps a couple of hundred thousand years. That is only a blink of an eye in the geological record. Personally, I think the Bible is a collection of ancient writings that were authored at different periods. Much is just the history of the Jewish people. As far as the Genesis explanation, I don't buy it. It just doesn't fit the known facts.

The scenario I proposed is actually more likely. Simply put, life evolved on a planet that, by chance, found itself thrown far enough away from the sun to have a decent chance. (Not too cold...not too hot). Then, perhaps an intelligent species happened along and made a few additions...

It would explain a lot of things. Sometimes I wonder if Native Americans and some other ancient cultures had it right all along when they worshipped things that had to do with the interaction of nature. Maybe it was NEVER about an omnipresent (and usually white) God who created the Earth in seven days. (And threw in a few billion galaxies at the same time?) Maybe it was about life and nature and its spread throughout the universe. Who knows?

I admit I have a rather cynical view toward religion in general. Most religions are based on fear, or use fear as a motivator. Religion has often been used throughout history to inspire men to things other than the worship of God. Things such as war, misery, suffering, and torture. So, my view is jaundiced, indeed.

I think the only way we will discover the answers to the two BIG questions is to go out and find them ourselves. These questions being: ARE WE THE ONLY LIFE? WHY ARE WE HERE?

Probably time to get back to Ray, anyway...rather than continuing on this line.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Robert M Blevins,