Doug Spaulding~
Tho there may be many good things about Bishop Spong, there are critical problems that have to be addressed.

For one, he does not believe in the virgin birth.

Okay, let's say that we let that one ride.

There are several others as well. But the one that cannot be excused has to do with the resurrection of Christ. According to Spong, that event cannot be true. So let's see what does scripture say about someone who does not believe Christ came back physically.

Turn to 2nd John 1, vs 7.
That addresses those who do not believe Jesus came in the flesh. Since the time he was a baby, into the teenage years and young adulthood, anyone around him SAW, TOUCHED him as a genuine person with a real body. There never was an argument about that. So this verse CANNOT be talking about that. It's talking about his ressurection.

Take note Bishop Spong~

" For many deceivers have gone out into the world,
those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as
coming the flesh. To those, they are deceivers
and the antichrists."

quote:

Originally posted by Nard Kordell:
But the one that cannot be excused has to do with the resurrection of Christ. According to Spong, that event cannot be true.

You really need to read his book Resurrection: Myth or Reality?. When will you next be in LA? I'll lend you my copy.

quote:

Originally posted by Doug Spaulding:

quote:

Originally posted by Nard Kordell:
But the one that cannot be excused has to do with the resurrection of Christ. According to Spong, that event cannot be true.

You really need to read his book Resurrection: Myth or Reality?. When will you next be in LA? I'll lend you my copy.

That seems to be pushing the envelope a little bit, don't you think?

quote:

Originally posted by Nico:
That seems to be pushing the envelope a little bit, don't you think?

Not the envelope, but pushing the book, yes.

Doug Spaulding~

Let's be rational here. Why would I want to even consider anything from Spong if he insists that there was no resurrection, no virgin birth, is for gay marriage, etc??? (the list goes on!!)

Ist Corinthians 15 12-20 says it plainly.
We are the most insidious fools in history if there was no resurrection. Why? Because Christianity stands or falls on this one thing: there had to be a bodily resurrection.

quote:

Originally posted by Nard Kordell:
Because Christianity stands or falls on this one thing: there had to be a bodily resurrection.

No there didn't.

Not when you consider the midrash interpretation: the resurrection story should not be interpreted literally. Rather, it becomes meaningful when interpreted using midrash - a Jewish literary device in which supernatural events are explained symbolically and gain meaning by being tied to ancient Jewish historical happenings.

For example, many liberal Christians believe that the mass killing of Bethlehem infants by Herod circa 4 BCE is unrelated to a real event. If it were, it would have been recorded in the secular literature of the time. Interpreted with midrash, it reflects the earlier story in the Hebrew Scriptures in which the Pharaoh attempted to murder Moses and all of the male Hebrew newborns.

Similarly, Mary and Joseph's flight to Egypt never actually happened; the story is an attempt to link an event Jesus' life with Moses' Exodus from Egypt.

The story of the resurrection was not a supernatural incident in which Yeshua of Nazareth was bodily restored to life in 1st century CE Palestine. Jesus' disciples understood that the spirit of Jesus transcended death because the way Jesus died was exactly like they way he lived. He gave his life to others and for others. He loved wastefully and selflessly. In that living and dying, the disciples concluded that Jesus revealed the meaning of God: God is the meaning that is present in the face of fate, tragedy, and undeserved pain. God cannot be seen in Jesus' escape from death at Easter until God is first seen in the crucified one who gives life as he dies, who offers forgiveness as he is victimized, who shows love as he is hated.

It was this understanding that converted Jesus' followers from a hopelessly demoralized group into a committed, dedicated religious movement who proclaimed "He is risen!" and "Death cannot contain him!" In a very real sense, interpreted with midrash, the stories explain that even physical death could not confine Jesus' message.

Doug Spaulding, you surely understand, don't you now, that your views are taken to be heresy in an historic Christian context. Nowadays, your views, or those of the ones you have adopt, run off the pages of the sacred text onto the pages from another author, basically yourself, or Spong, or whomever captures your intellectual fancy.

Scripture is clear that a physical resurrection had to take place or our faith is not relevant.

What if I said that a lusting heart or mind does not blot out the Spirit of God. Spong seems to say that's the case. Scripture says otherwise. So you see how messy it all gets, and, at the same time, understandable why it gets so twisted when you say sin isn't that dangerous, or doesn't exist at all; or lust doesn't matter, no virgin birth, and no resurrection. Sin twists one's thinking into the morbid mess of such distortion that, as scripture points out, there is thus sent such a strong delusion that even the elect are shaken.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil Knox:
Doug Spaulding, you surely understand, don't you now, that your views are taken to be heresy in an historic Christian context.

I'm glad they don't burn us at the stake anymore!

Christ is risen from the dead
Trampling down Death by Death
And upon those in the tombs bestowing Life!

(Traditional Paschal troparion - just sang this a couple of hours ago at the deathbead of a dear friend - a heiromonk.)

Doug Spaulding~ No way, Jose. We may burn a steak or two at a Bar-BQ now and then.

But then what grand opportunity for you to be saved would there be if such barbaric measures as you mentioned were put in place because of your unbuoyant flights of fancy?

Bright Blessings to the Reverend Hieromonk.

quote:

Originally posted by Doug Spaulding:
Bright Blessings to the Reverend Hieromonk.

Seconded.

Thanks much.

quote:

Originally posted by Doug Spaulding:
Bright Blessings to the Reverend Hieromonk.

Doug Spaulding: Well I must say, you at least got something right. You spelled hieromonk correctly.

What I found hard to believe is when a minister, at a funeral, will say "There in Heaven now." What a slap in the face of Jesus who gave his perfect life so that all of mankind would be able receive life eternal.

They're dead and in the ground, or cremated, or whatever their state might be at death. The Bible states that with the dead there is no work, nor thoughts, etc. until the resurrection.