(*yawn*)

It's getting a little stuffy here Braling II!

quote:

Originally posted by embroiderer:
THIS IS HILARIOUS!

Someone struck a nerve with Doug Spaulding.

When someone gets provoke, he pulls out his entire family, gets his neighbors out of bed, and rounds up every dog in the vicinity to confront this lightning bug that landed on the fence post.
But I must at least say something. Scripture makes it very clear that mere man DID NOT write the bible. Even Ray Bradbury says he doesn't write his stories. This is NOT metaphor. Ray is convinced he doesn't write his stories.
In scripture it says GOD moved men's minds and hearts and hands. Period! Come on Spaulding. Don't be such a coward now.

You have hit the exact point, of course the hand of a man, or men, was lifted to the page by an inspiration, a muse as it were, in the writing of the Biblical texts, the Gospels, or "Good News" of God or was it another Motive such as advertisement - "good News" sounds like ad men at work to me. Look to the reason for the text, why it appeared when it appeared and some clue about Motive will then lead to a better understnading of the actual text.

quote:

Originally posted by Braling II:
(*yawn*)

I always seem to put Mr Braling to sleep.

(Can you put a robot to sleep?)

[Phil) patrask:
Oh Oh! This is where I mix Politics and Religion to make a point! Yowie.!!

I'm currently watching a rally with Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton together in Unity, New Hampshire. (His tie even matches her outfit. Hint hint.) But as I am watching this, I place this in the context of historic eyes, the depth and span of the the vision of Abraham Lincoln, that particular segment of society at the time that yearned for freedom, and I look at this event, and...if I like the candidates or not...it's a matter of ... "well, here's how it looks when it finally happens.."

When you read scripture, you must also use the "prism"...if I can use that word...the prism of who Christ is. Thru that prism, once it is real and genuine, then only do you see scriptures as they were meant to be read. Without 3-D glasses, no breathtaking leaps and bounds from the movie screen. It lies not only flat, but double imaged and blurry. Same with scripture. No Spirit, then only only intellectually discerned words and phrases. The mind begins to poke holes, see rifts, see contradictions everywhere.

A brief 'For instance', if you will...

Ephesians I Verse 4:
"Long ago, even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes."

You can look at this verse two ways:
Intellectually with a rational sense of meaning,
Or with a heart inspired by the Holy Spirit. and then intellectually with a rational sense of meaning.

With the motivating power of the Spirit, the verse has endless applications and meaning.
Intellectually only, it can seem rather dubious, hard to understand, even far out.

What does it mean that God knew me before he created the stars? How do you fathom that?

What does it mean that the way God made me beloved in his sight and without blame was to insert me into the character of his son, Jesus? How does one plunge the depths of love that encompasses such a infinite 'event'?

Well first, you accept Christ, and let the Spirit of Christ, the mind of Christ Himself, discern for you what words were placed there by God.

quote:

Originally posted by patrask:
Look to the reason for the text, why it appeared when it appeared and some clue about Motive will then lead to a better understanding of the actual text.

Exactly.

To truly understand the scriptures, one needs to know not only who wrote it, but who their audience was, what their motivation was, and perhaps most importantly, in what context their audience would have understood it.

Now how many here have read the scriptures through Jewish eyes? Better yet, how many have employed midrash to understand it?

(Oh, no - not midrash again!) Yes, midrash again! Until you understand midrash, you understand almost nothing about the bible - sorry.

quote:

Originally posted by Nard Kordell:

When you read scripture, you must also use the "prism"...if I can use that word...the prism of who Christ is. Thru that prism, once it is real and genuine, then only do you see scriptures as they were meant to be read. Without 3-D glasses, no breathtaking leaps and bounds from the movie screen. It lies not only flat, but double imaged and blurry. Same with scripture. No Spirit, then only only intellectually discerned words and phrases. The mind begins to poke holes, see rifts, see contradictions everywhere.

Well put, Nard! Or, as through a glass, darkly; and then face to face?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nard Kordell:
A brief 'For instance', if you will...

Ephesians I Verse 4:
"Long ago, even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes."

Boy Nard, there doesn't sound like there was any original sin in that quotation does there?

patrask:
Well of course there is. That's why the Father had to absorb us into the character of his Son.

You'll read that Christ was also crucified for our sin BEFORE the foundation of the world. (you'll find that in Revelation 13, vs 8)

There was a time when I really thought I was trying to "understand the scriptures", but was really looking for justification for my behaviour and lack of commitment, among other things; along with seeking support for my own shallow (or as C.S. Lewis would say) schoolboy's philosophy.
Ther was a time when I would try to ignore the scriptures, or dismiss the uncomfortable bits, because, after all, they were "only written by men".
Now, though I would not claim to be capable of anything approaching complete understanding, I have "put away childish things" and now rely on the great intellects and souls to whom the Orthodox Church turns for understanding the scriptures. I find their interpretation to be based on more scholarly research, more personal experience, and to be more challenging, more trustworthy and less contradictory than the fruits of my feeble and biased attempts, or of those "interpreters" outside the Church. The Fathers of the early Christian era such as St. Antony the Great, St. John Chrisostom; or more recent saints such as St. John of Kronstadt or St. Innocent of Alaska; read them and you'll see they love and obey the same God, and have little or no dispute as to the origin or interpretation of scripture.
And loving God (the real you loving the real God with real love) and obeying Him, I believe to be the only legitimate motive for reading the scriptures at all.

Doug, speaking of the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas, isn't that considered by most scholars to be forged?

Braling, nice reflection. Can you imagine the conversations that took place between CS Lewis and JRR Tolkien!?

I always wonder at the character and resolve of the likes of Francesco d'Assisi, Anthony de Padua, and Ignatius Loyola. They carried simple messages yet so profoundly affected those that heard them.

Similarly, the Psalms have intrigued me ever since my early youth. There is wisdom in each, simple yet powerfully truthful. Whenever I hear or read a Psalm, time momentarily seems to pause and a unique meditation presents itself. One can not help, I believe, but to look inward so as (to try) to find the personal significance a Psalm has just offered.

A random selection may reveal this: http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/index.htm#psalms

quote:

Originally posted by Nico:
Doug, speaking of the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas, isn't that considered by most scholars to be forged?

No.

Nico

Take note that the Gnostic bible is the knowledge base for the DaVinci Code novel.

Gnostics denied the deity of Christ.

The Gnostic gospels are not based on eyewitness accounts.

Gnostic gospels also make sex a sacrament.

Radical feminists use Gnostic gospels to support their ideas.

How's that for starters?

Phil Knox
Nico~~

per YOUTUBE video:
This is the pastor at Moody Church in Chicago, Erwin Lutzer, the intellectual mainstay for 25 years at the church. The church is part of the Moody Bible Institute, the largest bible college in the Midwest, located on a sprawling campus just immediately north of downtown Chicago.

Preachers from the pulpit have included Billy Graham and his son Franklin and daughter Anne Lotz; of course Dwight L. Moody himself, E.V.Hill, Charles Swindoll, Luis Palau (considered the Billy Graham of South America), and Charles Colson.

Here's Erwin Lutzer addressing the ...Gnostic Bible issue... at a recent meeting in California:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=DI3qCPE8pWE

________________________________________

quote:

Originally posted by Nard Kordell:
Phil Knox
Nico~~

per YOUTUBE video:
This is the pastor at Moody Church in Chicago, Erwin Lutzer, the intellectual mainstay for 25 years at the church. The church is part of the Moody Bible Institute, the largest bible college in the Midwest, located on a sprawling campus just immediately north of downtown Chicago.

Preachers from the pulpit have included Billy Graham and his son Franklin and daughter Anne Lotz; of course Dwight L. Moody himself, E.V.Hill, Charles Swindoll, Luis Palau (considered the Billy Graham of South America), and Charles Colson.

Here's Erwin Lutzer addressing the ...Gnostic Bible issue... at a recent meeting in California:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=DI3qCPE8pWE

________________________________________

Doug Spaulding, I recall reading that Erwin Lutzer had a theological debate with Bishop Spong.