I found this site doing a search. I wanted to see what was on the web about the A**hole Michael Moore's disgust comandeering of the word Fahrenheit for his message of hate. I know that Ray has come out against it and I am very proud of him for that. I am a long time fan and have taught "451" in my English class. I am interested to hear what everyone is talking about.

[This message has been edited by pabillsman (edited 07-15-2004).]

Wow, a non-liberal english teacher, I have nothing but praise for you. Read my post, I am a student and feel our classroom is far too liberal.

-Jesse

Believe it or not, there are many of us out there. Here's another one--I am a practicing Catholic. That can get you burned in some parts of education. I live in a small city and I have taught in our state's capital which is larger but nothing like Philly or N.Y.C. The truth is that the ultra-libs have really only had a major effect in the big cities. Yes, there are pockets of suburban America feeling the effects, but I believe that they are in the minority and we know of them onlybecause the "squeaky wheel gets the grease."

Pab,

How right you are...
I am in a moderatly large city (San Diego) and my teachers are all ultra-libs (Except math). But I am sure in the cities and states more in touch with the heart and soul of America there are more enlightened thinkers out there!

-Jesse

I think it's good to have our kids exposed to both views. I just wish I saw more balance in education and the media.

Dear God,
Non-liberal teachers (I'm shudering right now). But I'll stop right here. No need to start another row with religion praisin' ultra-orthodox-conservative "go back to your country" people, is there?

Cheers, Translator

Such an either-or world . . .

Teachers constantly get bashed. As I said before, there are a lot of non-liberal teachers out there. Yes, some of us go to church also, but that does not make us stereotyped into the above description.

Translator,

Welcome back.

But for the record, let it be known that I'm part of only the religion praisin' ultra-orthodox-conservative crowd, not the religion praisin' ultra-orthodox-conservative go back to your country crowd.

Odd, though, that you'd begin your post with a prayer to the Almighty then suggest that being a religion praiser is less than a good thing.

Best,

Pete

Pterran,
the Oh God was intended as an interesting beginning to what I was about to say - because the phrase took on a new meaning. See, the problem with being an ultra-orthodox teacher is the conflict this will get you in - for example, how will a bible-believing teacher teach about genes, the stars, our sun, or the existance of causality? As for students not being liberal - can they ever not be? What will they say when a gay kid sits in their class? Will they want to lynch him? What will they say when politics comes up, and the talk is about the disengagement of religion and the state? Will they be against that? What will they say to the use of anticonception - will they be against that too? How about the ctritisism of, say, bigoted priests? Because they are religious, will they stop short of going the full way and condemning the errors of the clergy?

As proof, look at the original post of pabillsman. He calls Moore a a-hole who is spreading a message of hate. I'm pretty sure that if he wanted to show me, for example, where that message of hate is, he would not be able to (or he would, but it would turn out to be a message of hate towards murderers (Ie, Bush), which is a fine thing, I think).

Mr dark, in the teaching profession one cannot be of both mindsets. One is trying to impart truth to the students, and one is bound to see various odd things. If one is not liberal, but a devout conservaive, one will not be able to impart the truth without scoffs, getting angry, or showing some other emotion that will cloud the message. Karl Popper divided the world of knowledge into 3 part - part 2 are personal thoughts, and part 3 are the impersonal "public domain" parts. If one ends up bringing in part 2 things while teaching part 3 things, as one undoubtedly will when one is a conservative teacher, one will commit a great injustice to those who expect only part 3 things (the students)(sorry, been reading a bit of popper lately). If one is a liberal, one is by definiton more tolerant of ceratin behaviour and issues, and one might still attempt to impart the truth of the 3rd part without bringing in the 2nd part stuff. This is why I think, roughly, why teachers cannot be non-liberal.

Pterran, How do you view the above things I mentioned (ie, the homosexuality, etc) above? If you don't wich to share the things publicly, send me an email. I just want to see how tolerant you are despite being the ultra-orthodox conservative. I won't judge you - I never do - but I am trying to find out a bit more about the combination of conservatism, religion, and tolerance.

Cheers, Translator

Since when were liberals tolerant? Extremists on both ends of the agenda tend toward intolerance. Give me a break!

Popper's theory is nice, But is a bit of an oversimplification. One aspect of education is not that you teach what you are, but that you teach people to think for themselves. And that means you teach them to view both (or all) sides of an argument and objectively analyze the relative strengths and weakeness of both sides -- rather than just teaching one point of view . . . whether that point of view is conservative or liberal.

I don't want to oversimplify either. I do think teachers ought to teach "truth"; but many truths persons claim are not as absolute and unchallengeable as they think. Therefore, I think the truly important aspect of teaching is in teaching persons to think for themselves and to do it well.


[This message has been edited by Mr. Dark (edited 07-22-2004).]

Well, Mr Dark,
this is a liberal. Pay close attention to the tolerance part:

liberal
SYLLABICATION: lib�er�al
PRONUNCIATION: AUDIO: lbr-l, lbrl KEY
ADJECTIVE: 1a. Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry. b. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded. c. Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism. d. Liberal Of, designating, or characteristic of a political party founded on or associated with principles of social and political liberalism, especially in Great Britain, Canada, and the United States.
2a. Tending to give freely; generous: a liberal benefactor. b. Generous in amount; ample: a liberal serving of potatoes.
3. Not strict or literal; loose or approximate: a liberal translation.
4. Of, relating to, or based on the traditional arts and sciences of a college or university curriculum: a liberal education.
5a. Archaic Permissible or appropriate for a person of free birth; befitting a lady or gentleman. b. Obsolete Morally unrestrained; licentious.
NOUN: 1. A person with liberal ideas or opinions.
2. Liberal A member of a Liberal political party.
ETYMOLOGY: Middle English, generous, from Old French, from Latin lberlis, from lber, free. See leudh- in Appendix I.
OTHER FORMS: liber�al�ly �ADVERB
liber�al�ness �NOUN

-----------------------

And this is a conservative. Pay close attention to the fact that the word "tolerant" would not really fit in with this definition:

conservative
SYLLABICATION: con�ser�va�tive
PRONUNCIATION: AUDIO: kn-s�rv-tv KEY
ADJECTIVE: 1. Favoring traditional views and values; tending to oppose change.
2. Traditional or restrained in style: a conservative dark suit.
3. Moderate; cautious: a conservative estimate.
4a. Of or relating to the political philosophy of conservatism. b. Belonging to a conservative party, group, or movement.
5. Conservative Of or belonging to the Conservative Party in the United Kingdom or the Progressive Conservative Party in Canada.
6. Conservative Of or adhering to Conservative Judaism.
7. Tending to conserve; preservative: the conservative use of natural resources.
NOUN: 1. One favoring traditional views and values.
2. A supporter of political conservatism.
3. Conservative A member or supporter of the Conservative Party in the United Kingdom or the Progressive Conservative Party in Canada.
4. Archaic A preservative agent or principle.
OTHER FORMS: con�serva�tive�ly �ADVERB
con�serva�tive�ness �NOUN

-----------------

So, I still maintain that a teacher must be liberal, for the "think for yourself" idea cannot be supported by someone who is opposed to change, and who is set on archaic and traditional ways.

Cheers, Translator

Once again you turn to the dictionary for a linguistic definition of something that is a politically charged term. In this case (though a fan of the dictionary) this tactic is overly simplistic -- as I assume you know.

Sorry Mr Dark; this issue is not political but rather pedagogical. Also, do you find anything simplistic in clearly defining what we are talking about? I thought that would clarify issues - why would you think it makes things too simple?

Cheers, Translator

Just to set the record straight, I never said I was conservative. I said I was non-liberal. It is possible to be moderate. Ultra-left or ultra-right people won't agree but it is true. I teach English so there are very few political spins one can put upon writing skills. As far as the literature I teach, I encourage students to find their own interpretations and think for themselves. However, I do not approach anything about gays in the class, contraception, or any of the other liberal issues that some educators try to ram down the throats of kids. Parents should discuss those matters with their kids. I educate. I do not have a social agenda. I do not criticize the priesthood because it is not at fault. The priests who performed terrible acts are at fault but not all priests. After all, you liberals would not want me to say that black people commit crimes, would you? Do they? Yes, just like whites do, but that does not make them all criminals.

As far as calling Moore an A-hole, and calling his message hateful, I would say that to anyone who goes to a country like France and badmouths the United States. He can disagree all he wants with President Bush, but he should have respect for the presidency.

Translator, for you to call Bush a murderer is disgusting. That is just another example of hate speech. 9/11 was murder, not our response to it. And please do not use the weak argument that Iraq was invaded for no reason. The WMD were there and were either destroyed or are still hidden.

GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!!!!!!!!!!