Translator,

I'm Conservative because I'm skeptical of change. I'm Conservative because I believe in less government control and more freedom. That usually means less intrusion into our personal lives, which sometimes we Conservatives forget. (But we have a legitimate concern about private lives when it effects the general welfare.) I'm Conservative because I believe in a strong national defense. I'm Conservative because I believe the United States has every right to protect its citizens. I'm conservative in my views of art, as well, although you might call me old-fashioned. I'm Conservative because, well, I know it's not really a good idea to find inspiration in movie dialogue but, shoot, if it works, why not? "I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them." John Wayne as John Bernard Books in "The Shootist."

Can't get much more Conservative than that.

Best,

Pete

As I read down the thread, I was formulating my reponse, but there is no need, for Pterran basically summed up everything I would have said.

As far as what I teach, it does range from grammar, to creative writing, to literature, including most of the items that translator mentioned. An important point needs to be made, though. Literature is filled with religious allusions. I have taught Puritan Literature, as well as the polytheism of the Greeks. My favorite unit is the teaching of Macbeth which is rampant with witchcraft. The bottom line is that when I teach it, I tell the students that "These are not my views, these are the views of the writers who wrote this literature. You have your own beliefs. I will not ask you what religion you are, nor will I try to swing you to mine." Now, polytheism and witchcraft are contrary to my beliefs, but I do not exclude it because I am a Christian. As far as contemporary authors, I am restricted by time and set curriculum as to what I may cover, but I have covered Ginsberg, Kerrouac, Stephen Spender (who was openly gay),and a great deal of others.

If I did try to impose any of my Christian views upon kids, I would lose my job. However, I have seen documentaries where teachers try to convince kids at a very young age that homosexuality is acceptable. As early as first grade, they ram it down kids throats by saying, "Isn't it great that Sarah has two mommies and no daddy. The teacher didn't say, "You decide for yourself if you think this is right," the way I do in my class. I saw the actual footage (PBS). Now who has the agenda? I have personally defended a girl who was an atheist, and who was getting picked on in class. Why? Because it is between her and her family, not the other students, nor me.

I am just glad that the community that I live in has not resorted to the brainwashing of kids by forcing them in classes as early as second grade to learn how to put condoms on cucumbers. That is disgusting, and it does happen!!!!!!!!!!

P.S. Where can I find this famous Ruled Paper debate?

[This message has been edited by pabillsman (edited 07-25-2004).]

I have a lot of convictions, Translator. I have just lived long enough to know that there are many perspectives on a lot of issues -- especially in areas as complex, large in scope, and personal as politics and religion. Your world view is very closed. As I say, when I was younger, I had all the answers, too. The difference is I was open to others' ideas. Your apparent view is that, at 20 or so, you understand everything of value. The problem and danger with this position is that you are unable to learn anything of substance as long as you believe that you already understand everything that is important.

Your definitions, contrary to your protestations, are quite fluid and often self-serving. What DO you mean by a conservative or liberal? It is no fair to run to the dictionary for simple, linguistic definitions of complex issues. Scores of books have been written trying to define these issues. You want to run to the dictionary and answer them in three sentences. Dictionaries are great starting points, but on complex issues, they are inadequate. As they say in philosophy, dictionary definitions "are necessary, but not sufficient".

Translator,
I'm Conservative because I'm skeptical of change.
----what do you mean? All change? How about change from a nation not involved in war to one that is? Were you sceptical of that (for that is a big, I think you would agree, change)?

I'm Conservative because I believe in less government control and more freedom.
----That's a capitalist notion. While the two may have a lot of things together, this particular thing has nothing to do with conservatism.

That usually means less intrusion into our personal lives, which sometimes we Conservatives forget. (But we have a legitimate concern about private lives when it effects the general welfare.)
----Very good. Which is why I think that you would also agree that some things should be held in the control of the goverment - ie, the army, the medical system, other things. Nothing to do with conservatism, but good to know that you've got a socialist streak in you.

I'm Conservative because I believe in a strong national defense.
----Sure, but does one need to destroy the earth 27 times with their Nuclear wepaons? Is not 5 times enough? What I'm getting at - military spending is nice and jolly, but if you already have military supremacy, why spend more? (ie - the Missile Denfece system - why should space be militarized?).

I'm Conservative because I believe the United States has every right to protect its citizens.
----That's not a conservative view (I'm assuming that the idea here is that the US, despite its right to protect citizens, also should look out for undue carnage it might wreck on the citizens of other countries while protecting its own citizens.

I'm conservative in my views of art, as well, although you might call me old-fashioned.
----That's got nothing to do with conservatism per se, but with aesthetics.

I'm Conservative because, well, I know it's not really a good idea to find inspiration in movie dialogue but, shoot, if it works, why not? "I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them." John Wayne as John Bernard Books in "The Shootist."
----that is one great liberal phrase.

Can't get much more Conservative than that.
----On the contrary, you are more liberal than conservative.

Cheers, Translator

As I read down the thread, I was formulating my reponse, but there is no need, for Pterran basically summed up everything I would have said.
As far as what I teach, it does range from grammar, to creative writing, to literature, including most of the items that translator mentioned.
----glad to see I guessed correctly.

An important point needs to be made, though. Literature is filled with religious allusions. I have taught Puritan Literature, as well as the polytheism of the Greeks. My favorite unit is the teaching of Macbeth which is rampant with witchcraft. The bottom line is that when I teach it, I tell the students that "These are not my views, these are the views of the writers who wrote this literature. You have your own beliefs. I will not ask you what religion you are, nor will I try to swing you to mine." Now, polytheism and witchcraft are contrary to my beliefs, but I do not exclude it because I am a Christian. As far as contemporary authors, I am restricted by time and set curriculum as to what I may cover, but I have covered Ginsberg, Kerrouac, Stephen Spender (who was openly gay),and a great deal of others.
If I did try to impose any of my Christian views upon kids, I would lose my job. However, I have seen documentaries where teachers try to convince kids at a very young age that homosexuality is acceptable. As early as first grade, they ram it down kids throats by saying, "Isn't it great that Sarah has two mommies and no daddy. The teacher didn't say, "You decide for yourself if you think this is right," the way I do in my class. I saw the actual footage (PBS). Now who has the agenda? I have personally defended a girl who was an atheist, and who was getting picked on in class. Why? Because it is between her and her family, not the other students, nor me.
----You are, like Pterran, a liberal. If you are tolerant of others, and you don't mind teaching about those things, you are liberal in nature. You are not against teaching about birth control later on in the school, which means that you and I may have just differing opinion on when is the appropriate time for birth control, but we are in agreement that it should be taught. Which means you are a liberal.

I am just glad that the community that I live in has not resorted to the brainwashing of kids by forcing them in classes as early as second grade to learn how to put condoms on cucumbers. That is disgusting, and it does happen!!!!!!!!!!
---I would agree. But by grade 6 they should be well-versed in most things pertaining to sex.

P.S. Where can I find this famous Ruled Paper debate?
---Look under "Ruled Paper" and then go on to "A Miscellany of topics". Plus, try to explore a number of conversations (some finished, some unfinished) that were held here in the past 6 months or so. Many were very educational.

Cheers, Translator

I have a lot of convictions, Translator.
----I can see that.

I have just lived long enough to know that there are many perspectives on a lot of issues -- especially in areas as complex, large in scope, and personal as politics and religion.
----I too realize that. But when something particular and related to one thing only is debated, the isssues surrounding that thing are not very complex. Rememeber, you are always welcome to share what you think is complex. In many of our converstaions you neglected to point out the complexities.

Your world view is very closed.
----An assertion I don't agree with, and fling back at you.

As I say, when I was younger, I had all the answers, too.
----I don;t have all the answers. My answers are only as good as the rebuttals that come after them. I have agreed a great deal of times with other on this board, and realized that my thinking was flawed. I don;t remember you admitting to any such thing. Who has all the anwers here?

The difference is I was open to others' ideas.
----Notice that I always am ready to discuss your, or anybody else's, ideas. In fact, I rememebr pleading that you tell me why you think some of the things I said were false. I want to know what others are thinking. Is that not openess?

Your apparent view is that, at 20 or so, you understand everything of value.
----I don;t have all the answers. My answers are only as good as the rebuttals that come after them. I have agreed a great deal of times with other on this board, and realized that my thinking was flawed. I don;t remember you admitting to any such thing. Who has all the anwers here?

The problem and danger with this position is that you are unable to learn anything of substance as long as you believe that you already understand everything that is important.
-----Notice that I always am ready to discuss your, or anybody else's, ideas. In fact, I rememebr pleading that you tell me why you think some of the things I said were false. I want to know what others are thinking. Is that not openess?

Your definitions, contrary to your protestations, are quite fluid and often self-serving. What DO you mean by a conservative or liberal?
----What the dictionary tells me, and what is extendable from that defintion. Why, what do you mean by those terms? I'm ready to hear you out, as usual.

It is no fair to run to the dictionary for simple, linguistic definitions of complex issues.
----The meaning of a liberal or a conservative is not complex. It is simple.

Scores of books have been written trying to define these issues.
----I charge that the books did not have at their attempt a definintion of who these people are, but what their views might be. Name me some of the books you mentioned.

You want to run to the dictionary and answer them in three sentences.
----A bit longer, depending on the dictionary.

Dictionaries are great starting points, but on complex issues, they are inadequate.
---Once again, show me how the classification of people based on liberalism and conservatism is complex.

As they say in philosophy, dictionary definitions "are necessary, but not sufficient.

----Of course they aren't. But you are arguing they are not even necessary.

Cheers, Translator

There is at least one overtly gay Bradbury story: "The Better Part of Wisdom", in Long After Midnight. The title story of that collection is another curiosity about a transvestite suicide.

Pabillsman,

Look under the Ray's Legacy heading. The thread has gotten quite lengthy, our debate aside, but it might make for interesting reading.

Gothic,

Thanks for the story tip. Long After Midnight is actually one collection I haven't read, though some of the stories are in The Stories of Ray Bradbury, I believe.

Best,

Pete

Although I remain neutral I am enlightened by the fact that The Ray Bradbury web site has allowed a forum for you astute gentlemen to have debate. Where else could one have such a lively interchange of thoughts, opinions, biases, etc., etc., and to provide such in such a civil manner? It isn't quite Instant Messaging, but pretty darn close. And although not directly related to Ray or his writings, your thoughts touch, sometimes heavily, on the meat of his various short stories and novels.

Keep up the fine work.

quote:

Originally posted by Mr. Dark:
I think it's good to have our kids exposed to both views. I just wish I saw more balance in education and the media.

The balance in education is also seen completely in this book ray bradbury showed to all of his readers through his book the difference in his views. He showed how one view can totally comsume the american public and with out the exposure to the other view (the books and literature) how would a child or an adult for that matter ever know that they were in the wrong. By ray having enough courage to write about the furtue that he previewed from the way the world was working, he allows us to take the time to look and learn to understand how, people can only learn by esposure. In taking out everything that might upset the individual (in the book spoken by beatty) the whole loses out that that information and therefor the advancment of society. So i also agree that children need to be exposed to liberal and any view for that matter, and then let them make their own decisions on their views, just as montag needed to read to find his view.

Yo...Pab...

I think that this society is getting out of control. As an English teacher, what are your views of the future? Do you see a future without books as Bradbury does?

Also...another thing.

You guys (Translator, pterran) have heard about those marches around the country supporting gays? I nearly barfed to see all those thousands of people out there. This is my first time on the board, and I already feel as if I can relate to all these topics...

I had a best friend who's dad AND brother were gay. He wasn't gay, though, (at least I didn't think so) and he told me about how they were in the recent gay march. I feel sorry for people who have WRONG families, and I'd like some advice on what to tell him.

--scaryneighbor

The future is dependent upon whether the good people with the right ideas take control. Education is suffering because students are not responsible. It is very hard to educate when the system accepts every excuse in the world to let kids skirt by.

No, I don't see as radical an outcome as 451 portrays, but Ray has outlined here a warning agianst extreme government oppression by using exaggeration and hyperbole.

I'd say more, but kids are coming in for class now.

[This message has been edited by pabillsman1 (edited 10-05-2004).]

Does not the Bible say "Love the sinner and hate the sin"? Tell your friend he does not have to approve of every lifestyle to love people as individuals, and indeed there are some lifestyles you feel he shouldn't approve of. There is absolutely no need to hate the people who practice them or feel disdain for family and friends who turned out to support them.

scaryneighbor,

Why don't you just dust off your steel toed Doc Martens, tuck the pant legs of your blue jeans into them, shave your head and goose-step your bigoted ass over there and kick some sense into his silly little head?

What makes you think anything you have to say to him would make a difference to HIM?