Translator. Your ducking the question. You have a mind set that doesn't permit you any alternative.

Nard,

It's my understanding that Christ is part of the Holy Trinity; being so, this means that Christ is a part of God and so He can forgive sins. And anyone can forgive sins; "and forgive us our trespasses, as WE forgive those who trespass against us."
All I was TRYING to say was that Muslims believe in the same God Christians do, they just call Him Allah.

This is why I try to never discuss religion (or politics) with people. That is one subject people tend to be VERY opinionated on and can lead to some major disagreements. So, let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Korby:

I will personally send you $100. That's personally....one hundred dollars in good ol' American currency...if you can back up in scripture what you just stated as fact in your above post!

My Point? You make things up yourself as you go along picking up pieces here and there. You don't go back to scripture to study it as History and Law. And THIS...this is what causes you to go to Toledo instead of New York.
____

Nard, I was born in Toledo. And it's a wonderful place to be, especially if you're a Mud Hens fan.
http://www.mudhens.com/

[This message has been edited by Richard (edited 09-12-2004).]

Richard:

The ''Toledo'' I'm talking about doesn't have the word ''Ohio'' after it.

Thanks for the Mud Hens info.

And maybe this challenge I have introduced above is infantile. But I get perturbed when someone starts making claims that are mostly their own fabrication. As a driver, if I don't stick to the 'Rules of the Road' and don't think there is anything wrong with driving on the sidewalk, I'll be in for a surprise. The rule book says I will get a ticket. I might go to jail and get my car towed as well.
No matter I come up with my own 'rules', it don't count!
______________

Mr. Dark:

Now, unless something different happens here, I promise to return to 'Bradbury Topic'.

Love ya, Nard. You know that.

Holy Toledo! Spain?

Nard,

Are you speaking about the Holy Trinity? If so, that doctrine is supported by several teachings in the New Testament - Matt 12:32; 28:19; Luke 12:10 are examples.
There are no examples of Mohammed in the Bible because I do believe he came around a few hundred years after Christ.
If you're referring to forgiveness, well, I think that Jesus was supposed to have said something about turning the other cheek. To me, if someone does you grievance and you "turn the other cheek," that's forgiving that person. And that's MY opinion! BTW, Muslims don't worship Mohammed, they follow his teachings.

Can we get back to Bradbury now? At least most of us agree on THAT subject!

[This message has been edited by Korby (edited 09-12-2004).]

Korby:

You arn't trying very hard for that hundred.
And those verses are inadequate.

My point of contention was when you stated "... Muslims believe in the 'SAME' God Christians do." 'THAT' is utter nonsense.

Here, real quick now:
John 1, verse 1. "In the beginning the Word already existed. He was with God, and he was God."

Before Jesus was born as a human being, he is called the 'Word' in scripture.
Again now, the verse states the ..."Word was God!" Look it up yourself. Okay so far...?

Muslims DO NOT look at Christ as God, but as one of many prophets.
See: http://www.opc.org/new_horizons/NH02/12f.html

End of argument.

You don't get the hundred.

_____

Now onto Bradbury....

I didn't say that Muslims worship Christ; I said that they think of him as a prophet, just like Jewish people do. And I stand by my word that they worship the one, true God. They claim descent from Abraham (Ishmael, not Isaac), so, in effect, they're offshoots of Judaism, same as Christianity.
You can believe whatever you want, that's your right, but this is what I believe to be true.
And I wasn't working for your 100 bucks; I'm not debating an issue, I'm stating my opinions and beliefs.

Korby: Like I said, you can't back up anything.
_____________________________

pabillsman1: I always liked the look of the movie 'Fahrenheit 451'. I know for a long while Ray thought it was the best thing ever done from his writing. Later that changed a bit, and later still he considered 'The Wonderful Ice Cream Suit' the best thing transformed to screen.
I still like to watch 'Fahrenheit 451'. Maybe because of it's French influence in direction that gives it a different look to American audiences. I think the old version will stand even after the new version is produced.

Nard,

You're not paying attention. I said that Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet, not the Son of God. I can back that up by speaking with any good Muslim person. And I stand by my word that they also believe in the same God we do; the one, true God. Mohammed supposedly got his revelations and visions from the angel Gabriel.
I can't back any of that up from the Bible because Mohammed wasn't around until the late 6th century, LONG after the Bible was written. I'd have to go to the Quran for that, and you won't recognise that book as valid (plus, I don't have one handy).
Again, can we just drop this and agree to disagree? You'll never change my views on this and I'll never change yours.

I never thought this thread would end up going here. I have not been on in a few days. Let me say this. To compare Christianity at all to Islam is a farce. Christianity is a way of peace and harmony. Islam seeks to divide.

Christian bashing is so popular, (And Catholic-Christians get it worst of all). But it is the "in" thing to accept the Muslims in our "tolerant" society. Here is the difference. There are Catholic priests who perform horrible acts. But we, as Catholics, do not support them. We are disgusted by them. But they are only men, they are not the church itself.

However, Muslims believe that their evil acts are right. Remember the image of the woman jumpinmg for joy on Sept. 11th as the buildings fell. They rejoice in their horror. Christians do not.

As far as Ray goes, I've said before "The Man" is all about Christ coming to another planet.

Thanks, pabillsman1

Korby is insisting that both religions are addressing the same God.

Impossible! Not my opinion or belief. Scripture backs that up.

If Mohammed was to be recognized, then scripture would certainly have presented him as one to be recognized. Perhaps like Christ, 800 years before his birth, was presented by Isaiah as a suffering servant. Or as God spoke to Moses in the burning bush. Christ said that he himself spoke to Moses from the burning bush. And there referred to himself as God. Go check it out!!

A fellow working where I frequently gas-up the car, is a Muslim. And he stated something that really astounded me. And not only him, but other Muslims in other stores in the neighborhood say the same thing. I'm mentioning the gasoline station because it was the first time I heard of it. And that is, if you are a Muslim, and someone in your family decides to become a Christian, death is the proper recourse. Wow! If someone in the 'Christian' family becomes a Muslim, the family gets down on their knees and prays!!

pabillsman1:

You mentioned "The Man".
Check this out.
Did several 'English' introductions to Bradbury stories on a 'Russian' site, and one of them is "The Man". Once you click onto the link, see the section marked with a large number 2 (two) on the left side of the website. Count out 4 little squares from the left...the one with the tiny profile of Christ, and click on that.
http://www.immersion.raybradbury.ru

Indeed.
One glaring difference is that Islam declares that God does not have a son; Christianity insists that it is God's very nature to exist in 3 persons: Father Son and Holy Spirit. (St. Athanasius, in the 4th century especially fought for this against the Arian heresy.)