patrask.

Talking two different truths here: societal truths (scientific truths, physics-truths) and Christian truth, to which I was referencing. Christ said I am the Truth! Case closed. Man makes his own destiny is a societal viewpoint, a community viewpoint, a philosophical truth. Biblical references are aplenty that one's fate is already pre-destined. Controversial, yes! And where is choice? Where is freedom? Here is one of the more difficult passages in scripture:
When Pharoah kept prisoner the millions of Jews in Egypt, and thru plagues was forced to relinquish his hold on the Jews and permit Moses to remove them, scripture writes this: It was for this purpose that Pharoah was born, so that God would demonstrate his power and pour his judgment on him.
Now that's scary! No wonder it's been written beware not to fall into the hands of an angry God.
Again, where is freedom.?
Additionally, this notion of a more complete understanding of the Universe? A societal viewpoint? Oh yes, possible! Scriptural viewpoint? Not really. Man certainly will become extremely smart and knowledgeable about his world and his universe and himself. Not denied in scripture. But it also writes that God someday says "Enough" when man, with his God-given intuitive and natural powers and intellect, attributes all these gifts and worldly acquisitions to his own achievement and powers. It's there that God puts a halt to man's quests. I like to read that passage because it gives a pretty clear picture of who is in charge of everything.

That a Stephen Hawking or a Ray Bradbury sees the necessity to permit man escape to other worlds, seeding the universe, to continue himself amongst the stars, reveals their beliefs. Certainly are those, if asked if we were ever visited by other beings some other planet, would gladly say that we are all products of visitors from other worlds.
What's the truth?
For one, man has a soul that is never destroyed.
He outlives his body.
And that there are uncountable visitors from that place(s) where life exists forever. We have devils and angels from vast domains of vaster existences prowling earth for rescue or victims. If not true, please throw away the Bible near you. Discard thousands of years of writers describing truth, not as they see it, but as God inspired them to write, and now contained in one contemporary volume?

That is why these two truths are so opposed to each other. You look at societal truths thru the lens of scripture, or you look at truth thru the lens of societal truths.

You get two very different pictures.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: libRArY,

Library said this:

quote:

Man certainly will become extremely smart and knowledgeable about his world and his universe and himself. Not denied in scripture. But it also writes that God someday says "Enough" when man, with his God-given intuitive and natural powers and intellect, attributes all these gifts and worldly acquisitions to his own achievement and powers. It's there that God puts a halt to man's quests.

I saw this and I had to respond.
I am reminded of another quote by Carl Sagan: 'For humans to believe they are the only intelligent life in our galaxy is selfish...'

I doubt God gets into the space exploration business, and I doubt further he will step in and arbitrarily 'halt it' when HE thinks we've gone far enough. There is one large truth about God and Man: Free Will. If God was going to 'step in' and stop man from doing this or that, he would have done it long ago before certain historical events...you know, the more EMBARRASSING actions of man, such as the invention of the atomic bomb and its use on Hiroshima, the Spanish Inquisition, a few world wars, and oppression and murder as it continues today in different versions around the planet. If the world Bradbury describes in F-451 actually became real, (God forbid) would you chalk it up to God having had enough with freedom of expression because man had gone too far with it?

A different quote from the New Testament: 'Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's and unto God the things that are God's...'

The things stated as absolute truth may be true, but are more a matter of faith. To mistake one for the other is always an error. For people to establish faith as an absolute, and actually enforce this belief to its ultimate degree, has caused more death and misery on the planet than can be calculated...

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Robert M Blevins,

quote:

Please let me put in my two cents. Judeo-Christian conscience was a vital part of this country.

Said by Library...

Library, this is simply not true. This country was built on four other things, none of which, unfortunately, fall into your category:

1)Slavery
2)The development of better weapons, especially rifles and pistols in the Nineteenth Century.
3)The Industrial Revolution
4)The near-extermination of the local native populace for reasons of expansion. (Native Americans)

Robert M
Blevins

Tho late out here (after 11PM), when I read your comment I had to respond as well! Your comment that you doubt God gets into space exploration business is LOL!! He created all of space.

It's scripture that explains God's action to halt man in his tracks as he builds his way up to God. (I'll find the exact context and post in later).

I've heard free will explained something like this: You are on a very large ship traveling to a certain port. It's full steam, course set, no matter what, sailing to a determined place to anchor. It's going to that point and NOTHING is going to stop it. That's pre-destination. Free will comes in that, tho you are going to end up at the port aboard that ship no matter what you do, you have the genuine freedom to do anything you want aboard while you are traveling, except upsurp the will of the Captain.

And this matter that God has not stepped in and stopped man is too large a subject at this hour. This subject about rendering onto the Casear had to do with allegiance to God or to the Caesar. And the quote said, you render unto Caesar what is due him, and onto God what is due God.

Belief and faith can be an endless subject, and no serious tackling this hour as well. But in a nutshell faith has to do with exactly what is the object that is being believed in? God made it so that to enter into the world he describes in scripture, it is so alien from this world that it is necessary God enables you to believe (not you trying to believe) but God giving you that faith to believe by faith, whereby you touch the reality he has promised. Now that's all there, plain sight, in scripture. About wars, etc. Christ was asked that. And he said out of man's evil heart comes forth wars and all vile things. I don't recall where Christ said that it had to do with the words he spoke and the things he taught. He said his words were light, and healing, but that man prefered darkness instead.

By the way, Sagan wasn't a believer of any sorts. He is now.

Carl Sagan is dead, and made his last public appearance here in Seattle.
Whether God exists or not is a matter of faith, not fact. Personally, I do believe in him, but I also believe in free will, say what you may about it.
Your perception of a ship and a traveler as the model of free will is something somebody wrote at one time or other, and means whatever you wish to read into it, nothing more.
Mankind has free will, totally, and his actions are not controlled by God. Perhaps God taps on man's shoulder once in a while and tries to drop a hint...but to believe we are actually controlled by him doesn't match the facts about human history...

Dinosaurs and butterflies were living on the Earth at least 65 million years before Man appeared. No one has ventured a suitable explanation for this fact. Man suddenly appeared in some form less than 5 million years ago. He grew reletively quickly and took over the planet, and now threatens to destroy it. You may want to do some thinking about these things and ask yourself the Ultimate Questions: Where did we REALLY come from, WHY are we here, and WHERE are we going?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Robert M Blevins,

Actions NOT controlled by God?

You must have forgotten what is the definition of God. Omnipotent. Omnipresent. Omniscient.

He is ALL powerful.
Present EVERYWHERE
Knows EVERYTHING

You have described mere man without God. Without the above definition, you have No God! You have something else.

Definitions of faith are at odds when you bring God into the picture. Faith in scripture reads, in part...

Faith is the evidence of things not seen...

Whereas the Meriam-Webster reads:
Faith is belief in something where as there is no proof.

So you see the conflict between the two definitions...

About your dinosaurs...you asked a bunch of questions, let me ask one. Seriously. Can't get a good explanation on this one: Why thru all those countless centuries no one ever discovered dinosaurs until the last century or so?

About Carl Sagan? A very humanistic approach to life. No faith. No God. Just man against space.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuJ3Tjj40P8

You cannot have it both ways...either God, as you describe, actually CONTROLS men's actions, or he does not. The evidence says he does not, for given the history of man through the centuries, he would certainly be an evil God. To blame the actions of man on the will of God just does not make sense. It is merely a convenient excuse to explain away many things men have done. God may sit back and say: 'Don't blame me...you all have free will, remember?'
As far as dinosaurs, you can look to your nearest Natural History museum for proof that they did exist.
You know, religion as it exists, and what people believe, often is a matter of chance and your address. If your address is in Iran, or Saudi Arabia, chances are you believe the Koran is the supreme Word and Mohammed was a prophet. If you were born in Thailand, for example, it's Buddha. If you were born in Japan, you leave offerings to your dead ancestors. If you were born in a southern state in the USA, maybe you are a Baptist and believe in the Bible exactly as it appears in text today. So, it's merely an accident of birth, in many cases, as to who your Supreme Being is in your life.

There are many cultures that claim their version of God is THE God, but whether they are correct or not misses the point. The point is, they DO believe in a Supreme Being of some type.

When I put my comments into this thread, I was really addressing the person who claimed that God would put 'a stop' to the exploration of space when he thought we had gone too far...My question would be, 'What is too far?' Is it the Moon, Mars, or is there a sign out by Pluto that says: 'Warning: Go beyond this point at your own risk...Signed, God.' The argument is totally ridiculous and without merit. It is the twenty-first century version of those people who used to say, 'If God wanted us to fly...he would have given us wings.' It is shortsighted and without vision or imagination. It uses one of the main tools often implemented as a motivator in organized religion: FEAR. If you believe that the person who began Christianity 2k years ago wanted his followers to use fear to motivate people, then you missed the message. One little quote from the Bible I think makes the most sense. It is the one where the merchant asks JC what he has to do to go to Heaven. Remember? Love God, love your neighbor as yourself. That was it, short, sweet, and to the point.
He DIDN'T say, preach fire and brimstone, he did not say, 'thou shalt not explore the heavens.' Or, 'Look up at the mysteries of the sky, but do not touch or attempt to visit them.'

To point to God and say he controls man's actions? The evidence doesn't show it.

I am not an atheist or an agnostic, however, I DO have a theory about Man and his appearance on the Earth that better fits what we know at present. Life in one form or another has existed on Earth at least 70 million years before Man appeared. Have you asked yourself how this could be?

Why haven't scientists been able to explain how we came to be, or how we evolved so much more quickly than other life on the planet? Some scientists believe that evolution is not the real answer any more. Some believe that yes, an alien presence may have paid a visit to Earth and accelerated the process a bit, perhaps with DNA manipulation and 'seeding' of the planet.

I know these theories (and they are just that, theories) don't jive with the Creation story. In order to answer the Big Questions, we WILL have to move beyond the Earth to find the answers. Maybe that was the point all along. Another factor is how long Earth can continue to support its rising population. It cannot go on forever as it is. Simple numbers show this to be true.

I don't have the answers. I think I know the questions, but without more evidence, we will have to muddle through the darkness until we find those answers. I have a feeling the answers lie beyond Earth...somewhere.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Robert M Blevins,

(*sigh*) Doesn't anybody read C.S.Lewis, Chesterton, St. Athanasius, etc. anymore?
Sorry, but we're re-inventing the wheel here.
Well, I suppose it gets the grey cell synapses closing anyway.

Have a great Independence Day, everybody!

(I'll be enjoying my traditional listening to "Stan Freberg Presents The United States Of America"!)

Braling II:

You hit the nail on the head. POW!

Whole lot of people out there who do not read much of a variety. Others are not even aware of the names Braling II noted. How about scripture? Come across people all the time who say they read the Bible, yet they don't even know the devil is familiar with the Bible inside and out and backwards.

Many may say that there is no evidence that God controls men's action, and I say there is absolutely no evidence in such discussion that they are aware of exactly what that means that God controls all things. They are not aware that this world has been totally given to Satan and his angels? That's what's been written down.

Why?

Because Satan asked for it all, and God granted it all to him.

Why?

So that when all is restored, Satan can have absolutely no recourse in saying that God withheld something from him. It's all there in print for anyone wanting to take up the book and read.

Carl Sagan calls such things, myths. Lumps it all together. It's easier to deal with the here and now?

In the book of John, it is written "...unless you be born again...you cannot... (please undeline that word 'cannot', it's not there to look pretty) CANNOT... SEE... (that means exactly what it means) the Kingdom of God."

Otherwise, it means that you only see what's around you, what's in your imagination and mind, and what you can muster from the philosphies of others. If you want to actually see what God is doing, you must be born-again.

Braling II, Reinventing the wheel. LOL! I've tried re-inventing a few myself thru the years.

I guess part of the reason I stated some of the previous comments is because I wrote a novel about man's first realistic attempt to reach a planet beyond our own solar system. It's called 'Say Goodbye To The Sun.' So, I suppose I am a little biased.

You can check it out at our main website, and there is a 20-page preview at our online bookstore. You don't have to buy the book, but at least it will explain some of my views.
I think most everybody on this forum knows my relationship with Adventure Books of Seattle.

I do believe in a Supreme Being, but I also believe there is bigger picture to consider.

It's July. The weather may be clear where you live. Step outside and take a glance at the sky, and then try to convince yourself that we are the sole representation of life in the universe. Look up, and I mean REALLY look around for a minute or two. Out of everything you can see with your naked eye, can you really say Earth is IT. That we are the only life around, anywhere?

The chances of that are about the same as finding a single black grain of sand on a white sand beach...

Robert M
Blevins

Concerning life on other planets...
Discovered a few years back (and have been nuturing the experience by practicing it whenever I get the chance)...a genuine sense of our place in the cosmos. Where I now live, (Southern California) sunsets are absolutely stunning. Enough dust in the atmosphere reflect gorgeous colors as well as filters the light to make possible longer looks at the sun. When the sun is the rich dark red, just above the horizon, the effect is equal, even when the sun has all but set. When the stars are out and the twilight is still evident, it works very well.

And here is what I do:
Staring at that great mass of stars I ponder the universe. How great! Near and much so far! I get really involved until I genuinely sense its vastness. And then... with the stars in context, drop my eyes upon the landscape of where I live...and realize that HERE is one of the worlds...here is what one of them looks like. Sometimes I get a jolt to the heart that, perhaps intuitively, bangs on some sort of reality. Otherwise, it's almost we don't realize we are part of this gigantic ocean of galaxies. When the sun is setting, and I can take a little longer look at it, and I realize I'm looking at a star...and there are those countless numbers of stars thruout the the heavens, and this one star, and when I drop my eyes and look for that mere second or two at the landscape, I take in that I am looking at one of its planets, and it's almost like tasting reality of this kind for the first time!! It thrills at least my soul.

Couple years ago I met a Lithuanian artist who lives in Chicago that paints along these lines. He's probably in his 70's. Lives in an old house on the southwest side of Chicago, and his entire house is filled with oil paints and paintings and paintings and paints and brushes and a varieity of assorted related objects to living and painting. A few of his painitings are tall, and narrow, with the surface of our Earth painted way near the bottom of the canvas, with a few houses, a few familiar points of interest, and then, at the very top of the canvas, stars and galaxies., I guess he felt that sense of our planet in context to the heavens in a similar way.

LiBrary, I believe you are referring to Genesis 11: 4-9 where the people were starting to build a tower to heaven. Here is the rendering from Steven T. Byington's The Bible In Living English:

"Come on, let us build us a city and a tower with its top in the sky and make a name for ourselves, for fear we should scatter all over the earth." And Jehovah came down to see the city and tower that the sons of men had been building; and Jehovah said "Here they are one people and all have the same speech, and this is what they to do to begin with; now nothing they they design to do will be impossible to them. Come on, let us go down and mix up their speech there, so that they shall not understand each other's speech"....For this reason it is named Babylon...

So one might wonder where mankind would be today if God had not confused their speech so many years ago.

Note: The Shuttle is set for launch today from the Cape. Too bad we can't see anything from Sunrise.

biplane1, Thanks, but no cigar. Not that one. I'll have to take the time to track it down. I believe it may be somewheres in Revelation. And it may have to do with the coming event of Christ's return. Soon as I locate it, I'll post a note to you about it.

I believe one of the Scriptures alluded to is Matthew 15:19.