Ray seems to have a consistent, subliminal message: Seek the Lovely

I wish I could remember Ray's words exactly, and the context they came in, but--

When I saw Ray in Long Beach recently, I'll never forget how he hugged himself and shouted something like "Isn't it wonderful to be here, to be alive!"

That's the message I carry away from most of Ray's writing--especially my favorite, Dandelion Wine.

This sounds corny, but I get such a warm, happy feeling remembering that Ray moment. What a guy!

My opinion is that Ray says about another point of view on our life. I have not said any new thing cause all good writers do so. But Ray's point is very strange. He is a foundation man. He produces a lot of different ideas and thoughts that could be opposite to other his ideas sometime. And so he shows different ways and tries to predict probably the future. I don't know. But Something wicked impressed me much. I still do not understand what he wanted to say. I think not only that you should always smile, what for all this beautiful carnival then? All over in his works they are autumn people. Was he afraid of them or he is teaching us to defend from them? But his worlds are great and reading them is a real pleasure.

"Bottom Line" messages are tough for me to work through. I have the same struggle with questions like "what is the best movie?" or "What is your favorite book?", or even "Who was your favorite girlfriend?" (As if I've had so many!)

This does NOT mean I think such questions are pointless or dumb. On the contrary, I think Nard asks a great question with this topic. I'm interested in reading what others find to be the "bottom line". Personally, I just have a hard time committing to an absolute on a subject I find partly subjective and potentially complex.

I think Bradbury's message varies from one piece of writing to the next.

The underlying message(s) of F451 seem to include several ideas: (1) Censorship is a bad thing, no matter how well-intentioned it may be. (2) We find our real fullness, as a person, in meaningful relationships (Clarisse and Montag, Montag and Faber, etc.) (3) Life has to be lived fully and honestly and has to be rooted in a sense of wonder and openess (Clarisse's contribution).

In Something Wicked This Way Comes, there are also different themes or messages: (1) The power of Friendship (Jim and Will). (2) The danger of regret (Will's dad). (3) The reality of evil. (4) The power of love (Will's dad for his son, Will for Jim, etc.). (4) That we overcome evil by positive actions and perspectives.

In some of the short stories, Bradbury deals with a wide variety of ideas. Among them: The pure use of the imagination, The power of love, The danger of isolation and loneliness, The power of mankind to move forward, The fact that life consists of choices (as we move forward, it is up to individual people to decide what choices they want to make, and those choices determine the future).

As far as underlying messages, I could go with the idea of love; and I could also go with the idea of living our lives fully in each moment of life. I guess I would also say that I think Bradbury's writing indicates that he wants us to live our lives in "a renewed expectation of the dawn" each day.



[This message has been edited by Mr. Dark (edited 01-31-2003).]

Mr. Dark::: I think my original comment....above, which is "Seek the Lovely"... is what I believe is the bottom line.. but.... like in Something Wicked This Way Comes...people were drawn into things they thought were Lovely.... so it has a danger to it....

We seem to know what is meant by great art, the appreciation of fine poetry, music, but my long time question has always been...well, what is THAT! You can say a lot about THAT! It is THAT that eludes us when we try to discover the magnificent "draw" of Ray's prose.....

There is line out of the first chapter of Robert Louis Stevenson's book, Kidnapped, that just glows....(I'll write it in later)...and I always look at it and say, WHAT is it that makes be sit up and take notice. It is, as far as I am concerned...way, way beyond what reasoning and human nature seem to declare....It is a mystery, and yet...is not.

Moving towards a more all-inclusive stance, I think the bottom line might be to perhaps shorten Nard's "Seek the lovely.", to just one word: Seek.
I like that the October People came up in this discussion. When contemplating such figures as Mr. Dark (the character, not the discussion member) we have to always admit a certain kind of draw, a seduction. It is part of their nature as much as it is part of our nature to resist them. All the same, on our part, the seduction is there.
I think Mr. Bradbury's message is to seek out and appreciate the worlds both around us and within us for all that they are, both positive and negative. I think that this is the source of the constant, almost overpowering sense of wonder in Mr. Bradbury's work.
We are repelled by the dark underside of this philosophy, but its presence is undeniable. That is why Mr. Dark is one of the more fascinating characters in SWTWC, and likewise, Jack in Lord of the Flies, and Satan in Paradise Lost.
Whatever we discover from seeking this, it would only be another part of the whole, not the whole itself, which would be whatever there is that is truly infinite. The point is to force ourselves into contemplation of the sublime by seeking.

DanB:

But there is nothing redeemable about evil...

There is nothing to learn about evil, except that it will destroy ...who you really are. That is its only intent.

The cigar store salesman, in Something Wicked... disappears from the ferris wheel to become a sideshow freak. So with the Barber, lured by his own passion for sexual lust. The father is riddled with guilt. It is about to destroy him. The seller of lightning rods is almost taken in with lust as he is about to be electrocuted by Mr. Dark. But he denies the seduction. And the electricity is surged thru his body.

I sat in a movie theater outside Hollywood, (Westwood to be exact), on the opening night for the movie, Something Wicked This Way Comes. I will always remember the comments of especially the fellow next to me. He was miffed that it ...grated on how he thought about good and evil, and walked away with the mumblings that the movie it was rather peculiar.

The good and the evil is often made by the same things. Why is then the difference between this two states? In SWTWC the difference is shown. But it's unity is shown also (Jim). But there are some films or books where this difference is triyng to be shown also, but you do not believe them. You believe this wonderful storyteller who tells his truth. What is it? He writes so that we are triyng to imagine us on the place of his characters. There is a choice - to be Will, Jim or Charles.They all are strong cause they can laugh. But I do not know what is to laugh. I can laugh but why? Only human can laugh. When you are laughing you never think of any bad things. Why? And opposite, when you are upset it is very hard to think of laugh. Asimov once wrote in his story that sense of humour is only a tool for aliens to learn our culture and our reaction on problems and life at all. Bradbury says different thing - that laugh is from nature and tears are brought by autumn people... My thoughts came to an end. That is bad.

ezh:

Sheesh! I think you lost me.....

Once I saw a review of a book probably published in the mid-'70s stating that the key to understanding a culture is humor. In studying other cultures, if we come across a joke, or some happening considered funny in that time and place, which is not at all funny to us, that is the key to understanding how that culture differs from our own. This may be a bit off-topic, but makes as much sense as some of the above.

Dandelion: A sardonic sidenote here might be that there are plenty of instances within our own culture where something was supposed to be funny, but I really couldn't see how...

Nard: I think part of what ezh might have been refering to (I admit he lost me a little, too)with the idea of unity in Jim, might have been how Mr. Bradbury presents them symbolically as the "dark" child and the "light" child, and what meaning that might have...

I agree that there is nothing redeemable about evil. But that there is a sense of universal fascination with, I think is also true. Mr. Dark (again, the character) is presented as absolute evil. Jim is the "dark" child who falls more easily under temptation's sway. And yet Jim is not evil. Indeed, I think he is a more interesting character than Will, or possibly they are more fascinating in mutual contrast? Perhaps this fascination to which I referred comes from two things:

How and under what conditions people let evil invade their lives, under what guises and good intentions do they let it in?
also,
What is the source of the absolute? If you believe in Hell and Satan, then there is your answer. Something that has always puzzled me in the Christian cosmology in which I was brought up and still have great respect for is this: Satan struck out against God in jealousy and wrath, but where did that jealousy and wrath come from? How did evil invade the mind of the fallen angel if he himself is the source of the absolute?

Through these things, I think that there is a kind of univeral fascination which Mr. Bradbury probes on both sides, the light and the dark. And by contrast with the dark, isn't the light all the lighter?

Dan

and also, Nard,

I'm interested to know what that line from Kidnapped was. I read it when much younger, too young probably. I remember a great story, but I wasn't focusing on writing at that point... My copy of it is at home, while I'm at school. Maybe it's time to dig it back out over break...

Dan

Another book that talks about the role of the evil/darkness in man's history is Conrad's "Heart of Darkness". The beginning is a discussion of the fact that man's origins lay in areas of darkness and looks at evil as being contained in interiors. The interior of the dark continent, the "interior" of the deep past, the interior of the mind. In the end, the man who comes to know darkness/evil first hand, Kurtz can only say, "The horror, The horror" as a reflection on the nature of life. Heart of Darkness is great reading for anyone interested in a novel that looks into what happens when the focus is darkness/evil.

There does seem to be some truth to the adage that we don't seem to appreciate the good until we have seen the evil. And there are many critics who say the evil character is more interesting than the good character. It may be that this is the case simply because most writers don't really focus on the complexity represented by a lot of good characters/people. This is one of the valuable things about Augustine's autobriography. His past is complex and that complexity is shown to be a part of his development into "the good".

This is one of the strengths of much of Bradbury's characters. I love the character of Will's father, because Bradbury makes him a complex character with his struggle against fear and self-doubt. He is clearly a good character, but the complexity makes him far more interesting that if he were pure good with no flaws.

I prefer to think a little bit on my answer not to loose you all then. Good luck. =)

>>>> How and under what conditions people let evil invade their lives [...] also, What is the source of the absolute?

I think this is very interesting. Good points about Will's father and Jim.

Now, we all now how much Bradbury likes metaphors, and obviously Mr. Dark and his carnival are metaphors for darkness and evil. I think a key message in SWTWC is CHOICE. How do we choose to respond to temptation, to regret? In our darkest moments do we give in to despair, or chose to laugh in its face?

So as far as evil "invading" our lives, I tend to think of it as more a temptation, a dilemma, of competing choices. Evil doesn't come from without, it comes from within. I don't think there is an absolute evil, there is only the evil we do when we make a choice to harm ourselves or others, or persuade others to do so, etc. But evil is always a choice.