quote:

Originally posted by Braling II:
SOME of us have gone through an awful lot of searching, reading, studying, etc, before settling on or arriving at our beliefs.
I personally know folks who have endured great persecution as Christians, especially in Soviet Russia and the Middle East. Believe me, you wouldn't last two minutes in an intellectual/religious discussion with some of these folks, nor would I.
As far as being 'too Roman", those I mentioned above (Lewis excepted) were Greek, actually.
Never heard of "Athanasius contra mundum"?
Best to really seek and really find before proselytizing.

What C.S. Lewis have you read?

Well, I've studied and sought the light for going on ten years now, earning a bachelor's degree in theology along the way, so I know a little bit, although I can always learn more. I know I wouldn't last ten minutes with most folks, hence my desire to continue to seek the truth.

I'm not proselytizing - I don't believe in it. Just sharing some ideas that might make you think (never a bad thing).

By "too Roman", I'm referring to what became Pistic Christianity, which includes Roman, Eastern, and Protestant, and is basically the same theology. It started in Rome, and soon infected the East, as well. I'm aware of the Desert Fathers, having read much of them whilst earning my B Th.

Read too much of Lewis to recall them all at this moment, as I'm in a rush to get ready to go to Woodland Hills, but will try to gather my volumes and post them soon.

Well, I'm surprised with the education you claim to have that you buy into such "Davinci-code-esque" drivel. You're way off, too, in your 'Rome infecting the East' generalization.
"Pistic" and "Gnostic" are terms usually used in discussing faith-based vs. knowledge-based understandings, you should know.
You may not believe in proselytizing, but, unless you don't know what that means, it sure comes off like it.

But, I really don't want to do this any more.

Most of the discussions on this board have been more edifying or entertaining, and I really appreciate the personalities, yours included, of the posters.

I wish I could be there for the book signing.

I recently completed an interesting book: When Jesus Became God by Richard E. Rubenstein. Those of the Christian persuation might enjoy learning how the Western vs the Eastern Church(s) came to be. Its a really interesting look at the founding of the Christian Religion (s) and it kept me facinated throughout the reading.

To be merciful to those of you who are dying to know and too shy to ask:

1. Here is my church's position. http://www.newchurch.org/about/beliefs/God/articles/trinity

2. I don't have a problem with most of my church's positions on most issues. Neither do I "write the party line" on all issues.

For those who subscribe to what I consider Ray's whacko belief that the only real immortality an individual can achieve is in other people's memories:

1. Ponder these pictures. http://thanatos.net/galleries/categories.php?cat_id=1 (Warning: all are of dead or dying people, mostly babies and children under the age of 12.)

2. Subtract all the millions of people who died before the camera was invented.

3. Subtract the additional millions since the camera was invented, who didn't have access to a camera for locational, cultural, or economic reasons, or whose families just weren't into memorial type photography. While you're at it, throw in all those whose bodies either disappeared or whose method of death rendered them unfit as post mortem photography subjects. Consider that many of these images were meant to stay in the family, so that people didn't even bother to identify them and we don't know now who most of them are or what happened to them.

4. Subtract the additional millions of such images which exist but don't appear on this site.

5. Subtract the additional millions of images which used to exist but have been lost in various ways or destroyed intentionally. (Many post mortem portraits have been destroyed as being "morbid" and their value is only recently becoming appreciated.)

6. Subtract the additional millions who didn't have families or whose families didn't care--kids who died from abuse, neglect, in orphanages, or on the street.

7. Subtract the additional millions who did live to adulthood but who no one will have heard of now even if they want to because every record of them is lost if there ever WAS a record. Someone doing genealogy came up with some staggering number of people who must have lived at one time WHOSE NAMES AREN'T EVEN KNOWN! (When you consider how long human beings have been around and how short a time records were kept this includes practically everybody--"known" people are more an exception than a rule.)

Even subscribing to reincarnation, what did these kids have to look forward to? Golly gee, I checked out at age two this time, maybe next time I can kick the bucket at age ten? No one would remember them except a few friends and family, all gone now. Are we to assume that "some matter, some don't," and these people died young, obscure, or both because they didn't?

8. Factor in how fast anyone would go crazy if they didn't believe that God KNOWS and CARES about ALL of their identities!

Sometimes by what Ray says, you have to wonder what, if anything, he thinks, but then he has written such a poem as "Their Names in Dust, Their Dates in Grass" about numerous deaths of very young children, to show that he has considered these issues. It's just that his conclusion may be very different from another's.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: dandelion,

Getting this discussion on track:

"Only the pure of heart will see God". THAT is in scripture, historical scripture.

If I get sexually permissive in my personal life, my knowledge of God goes right out the window so fast that I am left confused and MUST find equilibrium by skewing scripture to fit my new found condition. Of course, I don't think I'm bending scripture to fit me. I am just reading more of ME into it. And I don't think I'm reading more of ME into it. I am just colliding with what says that I am loved! Reality is horribly tough sometimes. Faith in God's protection fades. Once that happens, you are dangerously free to form your own beliefs around scripture to fit your own situation. I don't necessarily know I'm doing that at the time. In love, I begin to believe, everything becomes permissive. Afterall, you want to be included in God's plan. Doesn't God love everyone!?

Not only is it possible to disregard scripture to suit one's own needs, it's possible (and has probably happened more of the time) to misuse it to forward an agenda.

If Sam Weller's biography indicates anywhere whether an overzealous preacher's depiction of hellfire turned Ray off of *any* belief in an afterlife, please share. If not, it bears looking into whether Ray even remembers what made him adopt the mindset he has--I was merely pointing out above that this mindset leaves out many more than it includes.

"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."
Proverbs 3:5 (KJV)

Well, the desire for Truth is within us all. Unfortunately, most of us in seeking the Truth stop when we get to the point at which the Truth demands we change our ways; or find/create a "version" of It that makes us comfortable.

By the way, Dandy, your post above regarding immortality was well thought out and well written, I thought.

quote:

Originally posted by dandelion:
1. Here is my church's position. http://www.newchurch.org/about/beliefs/God/articles/trinity

Ah, the Swedenborgians - I am familiar with them. I have studied most major branches of the church.

There's some good stuff in there, but that is the case with most all religions and denominations, is it not?

quote:

Originally posted by Braling II:
Unfortunately, most of us in seeking the Truth stop when we get to the point at which the Truth demands we change our ways...

Mr Braling, you have hit the nail on the head!

What is the most important thing the spirit of God can teach us?

This fellow's (www.brennanmanning.com) opinion follows - have a listen, if you please:

http://www.belairpres.org/resources/sermons.html?sermon...nsite_sermonid=14866

This recent sermon at our parish suggests the most important thing is to really know God loves us, and it made me think (and thinking is paramount with Gnostics!).

quote:

Originally posted by Braling II:
Well, I'm surprised with the education you claim to have that you buy into such "Davinci-code-esque" drivel.

Oh, I'm not a band-wagon-jumper; I bought into it long before The DaVinci Code was published. There's a lot of historically accurate truth in that work.

quote:

You're way off, too, in your 'Rome infecting the East' generalization.

In 325, what was to become the Roman Catholic Church certainly imposed some very bizarre man-made ideas and rules on the Christian world. There's too much evidence to ignore.

quote:

"Pistic" and "Gnostic" are terms usually used in discussing faith-based vs. knowledge-based understandings, you should know.

I do - that's exactly what it means. And while it's surely important to have faith, it's more important to have knowledge!

quote:

You may not believe in proselytizing, but, unless you don't know what that means, it sure comes off like it.

I know what it means, and sorry if it came off sounding that way. The very heart of my theology is that all must find God through their own path. God is far to large to be confined to one man-made religious organization.

quote:

Most of the discussions on this board have been more edifying or entertaining, and I really appreciate the personalities, yours included, of the posters.

Thank you kind sir.

quote:

I wish I could be there for the book signing.

I wish you could, too.

Here we are on Mother Earth, on tiny blue dot in one ordinary Galaxy in a universe of such. God must be very busy.

Blue_Dot_only-1.JPG (101 Kb, 5 downloads)

I think Carl Sagan said it best:

Blue_Dot_-Sagan_quote-1.JPG (95 Kb, 4 downloads)

That's exactly what Ray's new play is about. The Messiah is about the Christ's journey to far planets to show them the light.

Larry Norman said it well in a song from the early seventies, UFO:

and if there's life on other planets
then i'm sure that He must know
and He's been there once already
and has died to save their souls