Then again if you die as an unbeliever, you don't go to heaven . . . So it's up to God to make sure that you and everybody else has the faith. If he cannot accomplish that, what does that make him?

Pterran,

Your point is well stated. These observations were just based on my own personal experience. I did grow up with both my father and mother (but my mom wore the pants) and STILL ended up with issues! It took me a long time to sort out my anger, my resentment, and low self esteem, and I've finally gotten to a point where I have moved on and am comfortable with who I am. After rejecting what I had been told I was for so many years, I finally was able to choose who I wanted to be. I won't go into any more depth on my personal history, simply because that's something that I've dealt with and moved beyond. But it will always be a part of my history, and therefore will always affect my personal views on the subject. You are correct in the scenario that you stated, but I still remain opposed to the way modern society is making homosexuality popular; "It's cool to be gay." It seems everybody is jumping on the bandwagon these days. I prefer to have my own opinions, and I have a right to hold them without being persecuted for my political incorrectness. Hey wait, doesn't that make me liberal!? HAHA! In the truest sense of the word!
Wellp, that's it for now!
Cheers, Groon

Groon,

Good response. Always a pleasure exchanging opinions on this site.

Best,

Pete

I visited this site for the first time today, trying to get an update on Michael Moore and his unapproved allusion to Fahrenheit 451 when titling his latest pseudo-documentary, which was shown in a parking lot by anti-Bush forces last night in Crawford, Texas � President Bush�s adopted home town. I found an answer � in a posting by someone who heard Mr. Bradbury say on July 24th that his request six months ago for Moore to call him has gone unanswered. All Mr. Bradbury requested of Moore was an apology and the return of his book title; but, of course, that was way too much to ask of this �great man� (one post�s comment) who has the unbridled support of Hollywood and every other anti-Christian force in America. One example of that support is that Moore�s pseudo-documentary �Bowling for Columbine� was presented with an Oscar for �Best Documentary�, even though it did not meet the Academy�s own definition of �documentary�. That was the film in which Moore attempted to ridicule a beloved icon of Hollywood-past, Charlton Heston, a victim of Alzheimer's disease. Moore�s message in that film was that all we who obey the laws of America should dispose of our firearms, and he attempted to ridicule everyone who believes that firearms ownership by the law-abiding populace is necessary to maintain order in the presence of those who have no regard for the rights of others, who obviously will never surrender the guns they use to violate those rights.
If Mr. Moore wants to make a helpful, real documentary, he should go to England and examine the effects of their February 1998 deadline for handgun owners to turn in their firearms. As reported in a May 14 article in the Edmonton Journal, England�s recently released gun-crime statistics for the first five years following the gun-ban indicate "the incidence of gun crime in England and Wales nearly doubled from 13,874 in 1998 to 24,070 in 2003. And the incidence of firearms murder, while thankfully still very small, has risen 65 per cent". The article also detailed statistics from another report issued last year by Britain�s Home Office, which stated that robberies "rose by 28 per cent in 2002 alone and, since 1998, there has been an increase in the annual average of muggings of more than 100,000. England alone has nearly 400,000 robberies each year, a rate nearly one-quarter higher per capita than that of the United States".
It was interesting that the posts took a spiritual turn, becoming quite animated. This is because everything has a spiritual foundation. There was a war in progress in the spiritual realm when humans came on the scene, and it has continued without abatement, with Satan struggling ceaselessly to humiliate God � his Creator. 1John 3:8 states that the reason the Son of God (who took the name �Jesus�, and Whose title is �Christ� [Hebrew �Messiah�]) took on a body of flesh was to �destroy the works of Satan�. Satan�s avenue of attack is to make humans look foolish and stupid, because the human race is God�s highest creation. Our father Adam, the first man, spoiled everything with his first sin (disobedience of God). Before that, animals did not eat each other, and lived in complete peace � a status that God will one day restore. Any incidence of homosexual activity in the animal realm, along with all other deviant behavior, is a result of Adam�s sin. The difference between lower animals and humans is that they do not know within themselves that they are doing anything �wrong�, while we humans feel that we must boast about our deviant behavior and try to get everybody to applaud us for being so �honest�.
As a Bible teacher with 35 years experience, I would like to encourage those who speak out for righteousness by referring you to Luke 10:16. Also, remember that 1Corinthians 2:14 tells us that the ones who do not know Christ Jesus cannot understand the things concerning Him, and Jesus Himself said that no individual can even come to Jesus unless God the Father draws him or her (John 6:37, 44). The lost person may deny that Jesus even exists, while we who have a daily, personal relationship with Him think, �How can anyone doubt the abundant historical evidence that Jesus was crucified, entombed for 3 days and nights, was resurrected, walked among thousands of witnesses for 40 days, and then ascended into Heaven with human and angelic witnesses watching?� What we tend to view in the non-Christian as mere rebellion is, in fact, inability to believe or understand.

I'm not in the habit of throwing books away, but years ago I made an exception. I have never regretted that decision.

Mr. White, welcome aboard!
Though the ostensible purpose of this board is Ray Bradbury appreciation, there are several soteriological and theological discussions, Michael Moore-centered debates, and various rabbit trails under nearly every posted topic! Enjoyed your post, though a bit prolix (like many of mine!).
Please tell us a bit about yourself under the "Where y'all from" thread.
Bible teacher must be a very rewarding profession, and, I imagine, somewhat challenging, especially these days in this culture.
All the best.

Hello, Mr. White,

I join with Braling II in welcoming you aboard. I look forward to further posts from you. I'm sure you'll enliven our discussions.

Best,

Pete

Gothic:

Per your comment ... that if you are NOT a believer you will not go to heaven, etc...

Guess what?!!

Even the Bible has 'loop' holes. Oh, they are narrow, thin thin impossible to see except by God! As commented on earlier, nothing is asked today that hasn't been asked before. You cannot come up with a question that hasn't been answered somewheres in the past. Or some comment, as if you are the first question it.

So the question, like unto yours:

How about those primitive peoples way out in some far away place where the gospel is not heard, and they are not saved, and do not know Christ? What of them? A little like yours, eh? Dying as an unbeliever.

Well, the answer given is...

God will judge them for what they know! Further states that you are born with a sense of right and wrong. And the reality of God is sensed and known in the majesty of His creation...and therefore, you are left without an excuse.

God is God (says God), and that's why he's God. Amen to that.

"Even the Bible has 'loop' holes."

You say that as if it is a book of undeniable facts. The bible may not contradict itself, but I think that the writer's integrity is questionable.

[This message has been edited by John Galt (edited 07-30-2004).]

Nietzsche once remarked that it was a pity God hadn't learned better Greek before committing his thoughts to paper.

I think God, like Bradbury, writes in metaphors. The so-called Loopholes in the Bible are, in part, due to the nature of the writing style in the Bible. Human language is a finite tool. Thoughts of God are infinite in scope. A finite tool can't get you to an infinite reality. Hence, metaphors and symbols. The Bible points you toward God. There are attempts to define and list and circumscribe; but the metaphors, parables, symbols, etc., point you to truths that you "get" by thinking, reflecting, pondering and intuition.

Come one!

The '''loop-holes''' I'm talking about is actually something where I am using flowery language to make a point. The '''loop hole''' I was referring to.. had nothing to do with translation or language ...but God's view on how he will judge. The question was:

If no one heard about Jesus Christ, will he go to hell? Like the primitive person in some far off culture, in some far away age and time, who never heard about Christianity.

This thing I called a loop hole is this:

God judges you, ultimately.... on what you did with what you knew. Once you heard the gospel, you are in a situation where you heard truth, and now you are responsible for what you heard. But when a person hasn't heard it from someone else, or read the gospel, then God judges that person on the inherit knowledge that is God given, that you are born with.

That's what I was talking about....
_____

G O T H I C:

Also, Nietzsche wrote about 'God is Dead', spoken from the mouth of a madman, in Nietzsche's writings in 'The Gay Science'. The thinking in Europe at the time was ...God didn't amount to anything anymore, he was dead.

I remember back in the 1960's, to go to a 'God is Dead' conference, meant you were 'in'. It was the cool thing to do back then. None of us knew what the heck ''God is Dead'' was about, but everyone was doing it at the time....


[This message has been edited by Nard Kordell (edited 07-30-2004).]

Mr. Dark,

I'm with you about metaphors and the Bible. (And how appropriate to mention metaphors on a site dedicated to Bradbury!) As I mentioned, I think the Bible is a mixture of fact and metaphor. The challenge, I suppose, is figuring out which is which. No matter. For example, it's less important to my faith whether Adam and Eve existed or not than it is to understand we are all creations of God. No doubt, I find it interesting to see on the History or Discovery Channels searches for Noah's Ark and The Garden of Eden and the like but their conclusions effect my faith in no way whatsoever.

Best,

Pete

I think the fundamental problem here is that you assume that I believe in god and therefore what you are saying is just an explanation of what god meant in his book. The fact is, I do not believe in god and unless significant evidence shows up, I probably will not, so I think that if we are to debate that it should be known that I don't believe in god. You speak as if I know he's there, but I have lost faith. Let's start this back at page one. If you wish to try, convince me that god is real.