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patrask Society will continue to tumble until the love of God is developed in their hearts. We are to love the sinner, not the sin. And God says there are many things that destroy the person and the community, hurt and destroy the family and relationships. Here are some of them: back biting, not showing kindness to strangers, pride (which is number one, by the way), anger, lying, and the lust of this world, to mention a few. New Civil Rights? Well, that's not true. This idea that this topic wasn't addressed in scripture, for instance, is not true. Moses, is one example. You can read about what tribulation he went thru when people accused him of being married to a black woman. And he was. Your idea that God moves in mysterious ways and therefore will allow same sex marriage means you are not aware that God does not bend his character to please his creation. Oh, He allows things to happen, to teach us something, but it is usually painful and horrible. We don't seem to learn any other way. And even then, we slip back into our old ways. Allowing something does not mean condoning it. It means, you are about to learn the consequences. Now that's spelled out with a total of 5,000 years of Judeo/Christian events. I hate to see you continually grabbing at the whim of every atheist and god mocker historian and writer and speaker. All you will ever learn from them is that they don't care much about God. Tho they want to make you think they are interested in searching for something. | ||||
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Ever heard of Ex-Gay Ministries? There are several such. Not one 'ex-black' organisation however. Also, I doubt if anyone was ever told to move to the back of the bus because they 'looked gay'. Apples and oranges there, patrask. My black friends generally bridle at attempts to equate race and lifestyle. How about yours? | ||||
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You misspelled "doubt" and "oranges" - ha! Didn't "surprise" me that time. Bridle is a good word. Amended: Well, it's not misspelled now. "Live Forever!" | ||||
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Then there's this article: Not A Sin, Not A Sickness: What the Bible does & does not say: HOMOSEXUALITY & THE CHURCH The most beautiful word in the Gospel of Jesus Christ is "whosoever". All of God's promises are intended for every human being. This includes gay men and lesbians. How tragic it is that the Christian Church has excluded and persecuted people who are homosexual! We are all created with powerful needs for personal relationships. Our quality of life depends upon the love we share with others, whether family or friends, partners or peers. Yet, lesbians and gay men facing hostile attitudes in society often are denied access to healthy relationships. Jesus Christ calls us to find ultimate meaning in life through a personal relationship with our Creator. This important spiritual union can bring healing and strength to all of our human relationships. For many centuries, the Christian Church's attitude toward human sexuality was very negative: sex was for procreation, not for pleasure; women and slaves were considered property to be owned by males; and many expressions of heterosexuality, like homosexuality, were considered sinful. Such tradition often continues to influence churches today. Many teach that women should be subordinate to men, continue to permit forms of discrimination against peoples of color, and condemn homosexuals. They say that all homosexual acts are sinful, often referring to their interpretation of scripture. Other churches today are influenced by a century of psychoanalytic thought promoted through a powerful minority in the field of medicine. They see homosexuality as some kind of sickness. Although this view has now been soundly discredited by the medical profession, some churches and clergy continue to be influenced by the idea. They say that homosexuals are "imperfect" and in need of "healing". The good news is that, since 1968, when Metropolitan Community Church was founded, the emergence of a strong lesbian and gay community, and the conclusions of new scientific studies on homosexuality have forced the Christian Church to reexamine these issues. A growing number of biblical and theological scholars now recognize that Scripture does not condemn loving, responsible homosexual relationships. Therefore, gay men and lesbians should be accepted - just as they are - in Christian churches, and homosexual relationships should be celebrated and affirmed! The Bible is a collection of writings which span more than a thousand years recounting the history of God's relationship with the Hebrew and Christian people. It was written in several languages, embraces many literary forms, and reflects cultures very different from our own. These are important considerations for properly understanding the Bible in its context. There are vast differences in doctrines between various Christian denominations, all of which use the same Bible. Such differences have led some Christians to claim that other Christians are not really Christians at all! Biblical interpretation and theology differ from church to church. Biblical interpretation and theology also change from time to time. Approximately 150 years ago in the United States, some Christian teaching held that there was a two-fold moral order: black and white. Whites were thought to be superior to blacks, therefore blacks were to be subservient and slavery was an institution ordained by God. Clergy who supported such an abhorrent idea claimed the authority of the Bible. The conflict over slavery led to divisions which gave birth to some major Christian denominations. These same denominations, of course, do not support slavery today. Did the Bible change? No, their interpretation of the Bible changed. What influences lead us to new ways of understanding Scripture? New scientific information, social changes, and personal experience are perhaps the greatest forces for change in the way we interpret the Bible and develop our beliefs. Scientific awareness of homosexual orientation did not exist until the nineteenth century. Most Christian churches, including Metropolitan Community Church, believe the Bible was inspired by God and provides a key source of authority for the Christian faith. Therefore, what the Bible teaches on any subject, including sexuality, is of great significance. The problem, however, is that sometimes the Bible says very little about some subjects; and popular attitudes about those matters are determined much more by other sources, which are then read into the biblical statements. This has been particularly true of homosexuality. But fortunately, recent scholarship refutes many previous assumptions and conclusions. GENESIS 19:1-25 What was the sin of Sodom? Some "televangelists" carelessly proclaim that God destroyed the ancient cities of Sodom and Gomorrah because of "homosexuality". Although some theologians have equated the sin of Sodom with homosexuality, a careful look at Scripture corrects such ignorance. Announcing judgment on these cities in Genesis 18, God sends two angels to Sodom, where Abraham's nephew Lot, persuades them to stay in his home. Genesis 19 records that "all the people from every quarter" surround Lot's house demanding the release of his visitors so "we might know them". The Hebrew word for "know" in this case, yadha, usually means "have thorough knowledge of". It could also express intent to examine the visitors' credentials, or on rare occasions the term implies sexual intercourse. If the latter was the author's intended meaning, it would have been a clear case of attempted gang rape. Horrified at this gross violation of ancient hospitality rules, Lot attempts to protect the visitors by offering his two daughters to the angry crowd, a morally outrageous act by today's standards. The people of Sodom refuse, so the angels render them blind. Lot and his family are then rescued by the angels as the cities are destroyed. Several observations are important. First the judgment on these cities for their wickedness had been announced prior to the alleged homosexual incident. Second, all of Sodom's people participated in the assault on Lot's house; in no culture has more than a small minority of the population been homosexual. Third, Lot's offer to release his daughters suggests he knew his neighbors to have heterosexual interests. Fourth, if the issue was sexual, why did God spare Lot, who immediately commits incest with his daughters? Most importantly, why do all the other passages from Scripture referring to this account fail to raise the issue of homosexuality? What was the Sin of Sodom? Ezekiel 16:48-50 states it clearly: people of Sodom, like many people today, had abundance of material goods. But they failed to meet the needs of the poor, and they worshiped idols. The sins of injustice and idolatry plague every generation. We stand under the same judgment if we create false gods or treat others with injustice. LEVITICUS 18:22 & 20:13 Christians today do not follow the rules and rituals described in Leviticus. But some ignore its definitions of their own "uncleanness" while quoting Leviticus to condemn "homosexuals". Such abuse of Scripture distorts the Old Testament meaning and denied a New Testament message. "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.". These words occur solely in the Holiness Code of Leviticus, a ritual manual for Israel's priests. Their meaning can only be fully appreciated in the historical and cultural context of the ancient Hebrew people. Israel, in a unique place as the chosen people of one God, was to avoid the practices of other peoples and gods. Hebrew religion, characterized by the revelation of one God, stood in continuous tension with the religion of the surrounding Canaanites who worshiped the multiple gods of fertility cults. Canaanite idol worship, which featured female and male cult prostitution as noted in Deuteronomy 23:17, repeatedly compromised Israel's loyalty to God. The Hebrew word for a male cult prostitute, qadesh, is mistranslated "sodomite" in some versions of the Bible. What is an "Abomination"? An abomination is that which God found detestable because it was unclean, disloyal, or unjust. Several Hebrew words were so translated, and the one found in Leviticus, toevah, is usually associated with idolatry, as in Ezekiel, where it occurs numerous times. Given the strong association of toevah regarding male same-sex acts in Leviticus calls into question any conclusion that such condemnation also applies to loving, responsible homosexual relationships. Rituals and rules found in the Old Testament were given to preserve the distinctive characteristics of the religion and culture of Israel. But as stated in Galatians 3:22-25, Christians are no longer bound by these Jewish laws. By faith we live in Jesus Christ, not in Leviticus. To be sure, ethical concerns apply to all cultures and peoples in every age. Such concerns were ultimately reflected by Jesus Christ, who said nothing about homosexuality, but a great deal about love, justice, mercy and faith. Romans 1:24-27 Most New Testament books, including the four Gospels, are silent on same-sex acts, and Paul is the only author who makes any reference to the subject. The most negative statements by Paul regarding same-sex acts occurs in Romans 1:24-27 where, in the context of a larger argument on the need of all people for the gospel of Jesus Christ, certain homosexual behavior is given as an example of the "uncleanness" of idolatrous Gentiles. Does this passage refer to all homosexual acts, or to certain homosexual behavior known to Paul's readers? Romans was written to Jewish and Gentile Christians in Rome, who would have been familiar with the infamous sexual excesses of their contemporaries, especially Roman emperors. They would also have been aware of tensions in the early Church regarding Gentiles and observance of the Jewish laws, as noted in Acts 15 and Paul's letter to the Galatians. Jewish laws in Leviticus mentioned male-sex acts in the context of idolatry. What is "Natural"? Significant to Paul's discussion is the fact that these "unclean" Gentiles exchanged that which was "natural" for them-physin, in the Greek text-for something "unnatural", para physin, to accept the Gentiles. "Unnatural" in these passages does not refer to violation of so-called laws of nature, but rather implies action contradicting one's own nature. In view of this, we should observe that it is "unnatural", paraphysin, for a person today with a lesbian or gay sexual orientation to attempt living a heterosexual lifestyle. Romans 1:26 is the only statement in the Bible with a possible reference to lesbian behavior, although the specific intent of this verse is unclear. Some authors have seen in this passage a reference to women adopting a dominant role in heterosexual relationships. Given the repressive cultural expectations placed on women in Paul's time, such a meaning may be possible. The homosexual practices cited in Romans 1:24-27 were believed to result from idolatry and are associated with some very serious offences as noted in Romans 1. Taken in this larger context, it should be obvious that such acts are significantly different from loving, responsible lesbian and gay relationships seen today. 1 CORINTHIANS 6:9 & 1 TIMOTHY 1:10 Any consideration of New Testament statements on same-sex acts must carefully view the social context of the Greco-Roman culture in which Paul ministered. Prostitution and pederasty (sexual relationships of adult men with boys) were the most commonly known male same-sex acts. In 1 Corinthians 6:9, Paul condemns those who are "effeminate" and "abusers of themselves with man-kind", as translated in the King James version. Unfortunately, some newer translations are worse, rendering these words "homosexuals". Recent scholarship unmasks the homophobia behind such mistranslations. The first word-malakos, in the Greek text-which has been translated "effeminate" or "soft", most likely refers to someone who lacks discipline or moral control. The word is used elsewhere in the New Testament but never with reference to sexuality. The second word, arsenokoitai, occurs once each in 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy, but nowhere else in other literature of the period. It is derived from two Greek words, one meaning "males" and the other "beds", a euphemism for sexual intercourse. Other Greek words were commonly used to describe homosexual behavior but do not appear here. The larger context of 1 Corinthians 6 shows Paul extremely concerned with prostitution, so it is very possible he was referring to male prostitutes. But many experts now attempting to translate these words have reached a simple conclusion: their precise meaning is uncertain. The rarity with which Paul discusses any form of same-sex behavior and the ambiguity in references attributed to him make it extremely unsound to conclude any sure position in the New Testament on homosexuality, especially in the context of loving, responsible relationships. Since any arguments must be made from silence, it is much more reliable to turn to great principles of the Gospel taught by Jesus Christ and the Apostles. Love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. Do not judge others, lest you be judged. The fruit of the Holy Spirit is love...against such there is no law. One thing is abundantly clear, as Paul stated in Galatians 5:14: "the whole Law is fulfilled in one statement, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'" "Live Forever!" | ||||
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Haste makes waste. | ||||
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Ben Franklin? Or John Heywood, perhaps. "Live Forever!" | ||||
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Hey Doug, your post made sense to me, but I can guarantee that few others on this thread will agree with it... | ||||
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...or read it! Has it come to pass that we're taking a whole page for one post now? | ||||
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Thanks for your support! And foresight. "Live Forever!" | ||||
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Sometimes. The hard questions can't always be answered in one line. "Live Forever!" | ||||
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So, we find ourselves in two camps: 1. A group that takes the written work of a book, that cannot be supported by any other source as a historical document, and contains a part from the early history of the Jewish People, who needed a reshaping to be whole again as the Chosen People, after being ruined and carted off to Babylon by oppressors. Part two uses the first part as a justification for the Saviour of the second part as that which was profesized in part one, and can find no other supporting contemporary hsitory to substantiate the claims that such a Saviour ever existed. From this Book, all is to be decided for all time for the true believers and those who do not sit well by the judgements made are forever damned to Hell for their circumstances of birth. 2. those of us who have a different view and believe that the primary governing code between Human kind should be so simple that anyone can understand it and follow it and apply it to any situation: to wit, The Golden Rule. Damnation it is, I stand with the latter group and only hope that God, Allah, YWHY, or other names for the unknown cause of my extistance, will bring peace and love to all humans and allow them to grow up and be more God-like as they do. The time for childish things has past. If we do not learn this soon, we will start to throw the H-bombs at each other in the names of our separate gods and we will all perish from this Earth. I hope that God, etc, does not let that happen. | ||||
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Those are the only two camps? I'll sleep in the wilderness, then, thank you very much. Email: ordinis@gmail.com | ||||
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Patrask! People today know the earth is flat. People today absolutely know that man did not go to the moon. People today do not believe Plato was a real person. Or even Aristotle. There is no reputable proof that Aristotle even existed. And those that claim are of a minority and books are written by those that know, and fully disprove those so called proofs that try to present Aristotle as a real person. No such evidence. I can supply you with many book titles and introduce to you the writings of many very wise authors who have detailed the information you need to understand that many called historic figures really never existed at all. I have a very well researched book where it explains that St. Augustine, supposedly Bishop of Hippo in the early church, was in reality a product of the wild imagination of Frazwier Blunkvas of Norway, a young student given to bouts of wild imagination. Getting back to the fictitious landing on the moon, how dare you or anyone inflict your personal beliefs on someone who knows otherwise? So what that so-called scientists say differently? What do they know? They are prejudiced by their own written code books and studies, tainted by their own prejudiced beliefs. There is abundant proof that man did NOT land on the moon and there are scholarly books to prove it. Look, there are important groups scattered thruout the world who have knowledge that is censored by the powers that be and thus enlightenment is not given any consideration in the higher realms of learning that it so deservingly should have pertaining to this made up account of men walking on the moon. When will this prejudice to the truth stop? Why cannot these scientists accept our findings? Tell me patrask. Why cannot we be friends and this prejudice stop? Why can't we live, like you say, by the Golden Rule and accept us and at last know the truth? | ||||
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Sorry, but that particular line of reason is illogical, because you are comparing two different things entirely. It can be proven that the earth is round; that is an easily ascertained scientific fact. But the idea that Jesus was in fact divine, and his teachings were the direct word of God, is a matter of faith. Science is never going to go one way or the other on that idea; it all boils down to belief. The reason this entire discussion is in the political thread, is that some people want to uphold the ideal of separation of church and state that exists in America, and don't wish to have the religious beliefs of one group or another written into the law of the land. You can believe WHATEVER YOU WISH in America; no one is stopping you. But don't expect every other person in the country to hold those same beliefs. Heck, how would you feel if laws were written that were based on the religious books of other faiths? | ||||
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