It must be comforting to have all truth at your fingertips and see only one world perspective. No wonder you like Michael Moore! No offense, I'm only speaking of your jingoistic, ignorant, self-serving, one-sided, provincial perspective.
I normally don't get into name-calling -- directly or not -- but you cite things as proven facts that are still very much in dispute. This is a very annoying habit you share with Michael Moore -- a very one-sided, either/or world view. If I don't agree with Translator, then I must be wrong by definition, because there is only one way to look at evidence, and that is Translator's way.
Also, to compare the humiliation that occured in Iraq prisons by some American soldiers to Hussein's documented mass graves of 300,000 (as you do in the above post) is really quite silly.
Since you've already concluded the objective and absolute truth, there's no point discussing this any further with you.
[This message has been edited by Mr. Dark (edited 05-13-2004).]
Running...? Not waiting for a riposte? Again? Mr Dark, you do like to have the last word on everything. But this time, I won't let you.
What things are very much in dispute? Is it the war itself (...it never happened...an eerie music ascends...)? Is it that, basically, 4 countries participated in it (...the whole world did...eerie music continues...)? Hussain was the man behind sept 11 (...same thing...)? Etc, Etc. All of the above can be corroborated with hundreds of independant facts.
To show what Mr Dark is doing, I'll present an analogy: There is a person, let's call him Mr White, who posits that the Earth is the centre of the Universe, and the Sun revolves around it. This person is then faced with about 500 years of scientific data that ranges from mathematical evidence to incidental evidence that proves otherwise. A person then approaches Mr White, a person who understands the 500 years of facts, and tells Mr White that he is plain wrong about the stellar and earthly movements. At this Mr White gets mad, says something to the effect that there are many ways to look at the evidence, and concludes that the person is an ignorant who believes himself to hold the aboslute truth. Mr White then leaves, believing that the discussion is not worth continuing. But, surprisingly, that same view is held by the person.
Ps - I hope "cheers" serves you, Mr Dark, as well as it did me up to this point.
PS 2 - A death is a death is a death, no matter who kills who. Be it Americans or Hussain, the people are dead. You say that Hussain killed 300 000 people. That may be so. I never said anything to the contrary. But it happend in the past. If you wish to compare pasts between Iraq and America, guess which nation killed more people (Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Korea, Vietnam, Serbia, Afghanistan, Iraq 1, Iraq 2...and I missed some along the way)?. So don't bring history into this, because you will lose again.
Cheers Times Two,
[This message has been edited by Translator (edited 05-13-2004).]
You fail to make a significant distinction:
-- Hiroshima and Nagasaki were acts taken in a defensive war.
-- Korea was to repel communist invaders.
-- Vietnam, well, confusing, for sure.
-- Serbia to oust a murderous dictator committing genocide.
-- The invasion of Afghanistan was a direct response to 9/11 and the murder of 3,000 Americans (and members of other nations, as well).
-- Iraq one, to repel Iraq from Kuwait -- a sovereign nation they invaded without provocation.
-- Iraq two, not a separate war. Iraq one was never ended. A cease-fire was put in place, which Hussein never honored. Iraq two was actually a resumption of hostilities. Technically, there is no Iraq two, as it is a continuation of Iraq one, which never ended. It paused (that's what a cease fire is) to give Hussein time to fulfill the terms of the cease fire. Those terms were never fulfilled.
The fact that you cannot distinguish between, (a) the invasive wars of Iraq (against both Iran and Kuwait) and the use of WMD on the Iranians and the Kurds, and the ongoing torture, rape, and murder of Hussein on his own people, and (b) wars to defend territorial integrity and to oppose genocide, is really quite troubling.
In all your intellectual efforts, did you ever study just-war theory, the rights to defend territorial integrity, or the ethics of genocide, murder, and rape against one's own people?
It is not my job to convince you. I am confused by your absolutist world view, however. These kinds of issues are pretty complex. It is too simple and naive to pretend to a single, absolutist interpretation of things like this.
Okay, a two minute side-step here ( and then you guys can continue).... aback to basics for the moment:::
What Am I Reading...?
'''The Da Vinci Deception'''
by Erwin Lutzer
( A biblical repudiation of the best seller, '''The Da Vinci Code''' )
By the way, glancing at the above discussion.....
...if we lost World War II because of ineptness... we would all be speaking ''German' this day. And that's how it would be.
Just read: Forgotten Voices of the Great War (transcripts of archived interviews with WW1
Currently reading: The October Country
Next on list: Triplanetary, the first volume
of the Lensman series.
LENSMAN! That's ancient. Did you find old copies or are they back in print? You are talking about the E.E.(Doc)Smith books, right?
The Doc Smith "Lensman" books are indeed back in print, having been re-issued a few years ago by Old Earth Books as trade paperbacks. They are great fun for anyone who enjoys good, old-fashioned "space opera". Here is a link to the Old Earth Books website:
I'll take the reply to ruled paper.
Currently Reading: Billy Budd, Capitains Courageous. I guess the sea beckons.
Richard- You really Know your SF. What are some of your favorites? Are there any underrated novels or authors maybe you could turn me on to? I still haven't made my way out of the classics, but I'm almost there, 1980's.
I don't want to get caught up in any trilogies or series. I put off FOUNDATION until recently. Do you have to read the earlier DORSAI novels to fully appreciate Dickson's SOLDIER, ASK NOT?
[This message has been edited by grasstains (edited 05-14-2004).]
Read all of Stapledon? Wells? Try Zamiatin. Lem, of course, but I don't want to push him. Herbert? Dick? Le Guin?
Yup. Stapledon's LAST AND FIRST MEN affected me as no other book has, the range of ideas, coming rapid-fire like that. It had me pondering things that I'd never dreamed of previously. Things I'm almost embarrased of.
I haven't read Lem, his books are hard to find. The other guy I've never heard of.
Zamiatin (or some similar spelling) is an old russian writer. His "We" was an official inspiration to Orwell's 1984.
It's a pity about Lem - but do try to find him, his books are phenomenal (stay away from Solaris, though - the English translation was done from a french translation. A "broken Telephone" effect happened. I am currently holding talks with Faber and Faber to release my translation of the book). I trust you have heard of Herbert (Dune, Jesus Incident, etc), or LeGuin (Left Hand..., etc).
Oh yeah, I love the humanity with wich Le Guin writes, but her novels always get off to such a slow start, however rewarding later on. As for Herbert only the fist DUNE book. I'm really moody and at the time I read DUNE all the treachery and deceit was beginning to wear on me. I do often wonder what became of Paul's little sister and if his "terrible purpose" ever came to fruition.
Maybe I'll pick the story up again in happier times. I have two boys in the military and two little ones at home. If congress reinstates the draft I may be heading your way.
[This message has been edited by grasstains (edited 05-15-2004).]
I hope it doesn't. It may yet be replaced. By a horse (a la Caligula) if need be. As to Dune - I have to admit that I read the second novel first, and I had absolutely no clue what was going on for the first 50 pages. But I read on, and continued all the way to the last book(Chapter House), and only then read the first. It is, to date, the best construed other world I have ever seen (well, perhaps the Rings might rival it, if one adds the Simarillion). But I do hope you end up reading it; it is like a drug once you start getting into it. When the last book ends, you end up cursing Herbert for dying prematurely.
(and now I must go, for I have a chess tournament over the weekend, and I must rest).
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