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Politics 101 or Attack of the Pod People
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We're not talking about buying a steak dinner. We're talking about coffee.

And it had NOTHING to do with their skin color.

In fact, I don't even know anyone who would go into a fast food restaurant and use the restroom without buying something.

Regardless, I think I was pretty clear in saying that there is plenty of blame to go around. My point is, the guys who were arrested were not blameless. Who goes into a private establishment and does the following:

Owner: Please leave.

Knuckleheads: No.

Police: Please leave.

Knuckleheads: No.

Police: Please leave.

Knuckleheads: No.

Police: Please leave.

Knuckleheads: No.

That's how the conversation went. With the owner. And then the police.

When that happens, you leave. If you think you were wronged, go ahead and hire your civil rights lawyer and do what you need to do. Get the Black Lives Matter warriors to come down and protest. Whatever.

But LEAVE. It is a legitimate request from a private establishment.

Why is this hard?


*******************************************************
He said, "You're -- You're not waiting anymore, are you, Chris?"
 
Posts: 35 | Location: Dallas, Texas | Registered: 10 November 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Posts: 7183 | Location: Dayton, Washington, USA | Registered: 03 December 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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They weren't even requesting service. If they had walked in and bought a small coffee, they could have waited all day with no issues. If they had done exactly as they did, and then left when the proprietor asked them to, then no issues. If they had stayed until the cops arrived, even after the cops asked them to please leave twice, and then left ... then no issues.

They weren't refused service -- they never even asked to purchase any goods. And at the time, Starbucks was not in the business of selling table space or restroom access for the price of $0.00.

I talked to my Starbuck-owner friend on the phone last night -- if you want to buy a franchise, his is actively for sale. He does not think he can make the business work with the new policy ... and the new policy has likely lowered the value of his business since potential business owners tend to be people who can figure out that allowing non-paying customers to hang out in your shop all day tends to lower the number of paying customers.


*******************************************************
He said, "You're -- You're not waiting anymore, are you, Chris?"
 
Posts: 35 | Location: Dallas, Texas | Registered: 10 November 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by C. M. Christopher:
It is a legitimate request from a private establishment.

By 'private establishment' you mean public establishment?

Otherwise, please accept my apologies - I was unawares that the Starbucks was a members-only club! (I wouldn't know that as I actually patronize quality coffee shoppes for my beverages.)


"Live Forever!"
 
Posts: 6904 | Location: 11 South Saint James Street, Green Town, Illinois | Registered: 02 October 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug Spaulding:
quote:
Originally posted by C. M. Christopher:
It is a legitimate request from a private establishment.

By 'private establishment' you mean public establishment?

Otherwise, please accept my apologies - I was unawares that the Starbucks was a members-only club! (I wouldn't know that as I actually patronize quality coffee shoppes for my beverages.)


Are you saying that you think Starbucks is a government owned entity? They are not a "private club", but they are "private establishments" owned and operated by the corporation in most cases (there are some licensed locations and franchising exists overseas).

Starbucks sometimes tries to bill itself as a public meeting space, but its locations are ultimately privately owned. Howard Schultz remains the largest shareholder, and no individual shareholder or institution holds a controlling interest.

Thus, the board of directors decides how the business is run, and they decide whether to allow people to hang out in Starbucks without buying anything or not. They retain the right to ask anyone to leave if they choose to do so. That is why any lawsuit by the two guys who were arrested would have failed if pursued and ultimately defended. The two men met the classic definition of "trespasser".

Starbucks decided to settle out of court because, even if they were to win in court they would still lose in the court of public opinion.


*******************************************************
He said, "You're -- You're not waiting anymore, are you, Chris?"
 
Posts: 35 | Location: Dallas, Texas | Registered: 10 November 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by C. M. Christopher:
Are you saying that you think Starbucks is a government owned entity?

Certainly not. I think it's a public establishment.


"Live Forever!"
 
Posts: 6904 | Location: 11 South Saint James Street, Green Town, Illinois | Registered: 02 October 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Apparently "Whites Only" signs are not strictly illegal, but enforcing them may be.

https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/c...segregation-era.html

Also, a business owner who put up a sign promoting a "Celebrate Your White Heritage" event was quickly driven out of business, so even in jest such practices put businesses at risk.
 
Posts: 7183 | Location: Dayton, Washington, USA | Registered: 03 December 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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How does the Starbucks situation equate to a "whites only" policy?

Clearly, Starbucks is a very, very liberal-leaning corporation. Their policy (before they changed it) was that customers are allowed to use the restrooms and non-customers are not. By definition, a "customer" is someone who is purchasing goods or services.

As I have said previously, there is lots of blame to go around in this instance (including a large share of blame on the two guys who could have resolved this whole thing before it started by just buying a cup of coffee or taking their business meeting elsewhere.

I am very confident that if a white guy, or an asian guy, or anyone else had asked for the bathroom key, they would have been told the same thing. If they had just been sitting quietly at a table and had not asked to use the restroom, they probably would have gone unnoticed until the colleague arrived.

This story became WAY more than it should have. But, when the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.


*******************************************************
He said, "You're -- You're not waiting anymore, are you, Chris?"
 
Posts: 35 | Location: Dallas, Texas | Registered: 10 November 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by C. M. Christopher:
How does the Starbucks situation equate to a "whites only" policy?

Clearly, Starbucks is a very, very liberal-leaning corporation. Their policy (before they changed it) was that customers are allowed to use the restrooms and non-customers are not. By definition, a "customer" is someone who is purchasing goods or services.

As I have said previously, there is lots of blame to go around in this instance (including a large share of blame on the two guys who could have resolved this whole thing before it started by just buying a cup of coffee or taking their business meeting elsewhere.

I am very confident that if a white guy, or an asian guy, or anyone else had asked for the bathroom key, they would have been told the same thing. If they had just been sitting quietly at a table and had not asked to use the restroom, they probably would have gone unnoticed until the colleague arrived.

This story became WAY more than it should have. But, when the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.


Because it amounts to a whites-only policy. At another Starbucks after this happened, a black man who intended to order but wanted to use the restroom first was told he had to buy something before being allowed access. A white man leaving the restroom then said he had just used it and they hadn't required him to purchase anything first. It was after this that Starbucks officially changed policies and gave their employees lessons on not calling the police on people for waiting while black.
 
Posts: 7183 | Location: Dayton, Washington, USA | Registered: 03 December 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by dandelion:
quote:
Originally posted by C. M. Christopher:
How does the Starbucks situation equate to a "whites only" policy?

Clearly, Starbucks is a very, very liberal-leaning corporation. Their policy (before they changed it) was that customers are allowed to use the restrooms and non-customers are not. By definition, a "customer" is someone who is purchasing goods or services.

As I have said previously, there is lots of blame to go around in this instance (including a large share of blame on the two guys who could have resolved this whole thing before it started by just buying a cup of coffee or taking their business meeting elsewhere.

I am very confident that if a white guy, or an asian guy, or anyone else had asked for the bathroom key, they would have been told the same thing. If they had just been sitting quietly at a table and had not asked to use the restroom, they probably would have gone unnoticed until the colleague arrived.

This story became WAY more than it should have. But, when the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.


Because it amounts to a whites-only policy. At another Starbucks after this happened, a black man who intended to order but wanted to use the restroom first was told he had to buy something before being allowed access. A white man leaving the restroom then said he had just used it and they hadn't required him to purchase anything first. It was after this that Starbucks officially changed policies and gave their employees lessons on not calling the police on people for waiting while black.


Got a reference for that?

Not saying it did not happen, but it sounds like the kind of thing that would cause an uproar in our current environment where EVERYTHING is racism.

If we are accusing Starbucks of being racist, then there simply are no non-racist organizations on the planet. I am no fan of Starbucks, and I think their new policy is going to hurt their business (although it is certainly their right to o so), but they lean so far left it is amazing that their employees are able to stand upright.

Eddie Murphy SNL


*******************************************************
He said, "You're -- You're not waiting anymore, are you, Chris?"
 
Posts: 35 | Location: Dallas, Texas | Registered: 10 November 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by C. M. Christopher:
Not saying it did not happen, but it sounds like the kind of thing that would cause an uproar in our current environment where EVERYTHING is racism.

Unfortunately, that is far too close to the case. We haven't come nearly far enough since 1964.

Here's your reference. We'll wait here for your explanation.


"Live Forever!"
 
Posts: 6904 | Location: 11 South Saint James Street, Green Town, Illinois | Registered: 02 October 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Explanation, or spin?
 
Posts: 7183 | Location: Dayton, Washington, USA | Registered: 03 December 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Thanks for posting the link. Not sure why I owe anyone an "explanation" though.

If everything happened as the video shows, and it appears that it did, then that was wrong. They should not have given the bathroom code to the white guy either according to their own policy at the time. Could it have been another employee who gave the white guy the code and the manager who said "no" to the black guy? Impossible to tell.

Does that make Starbucks racist, though? Over 8,000 locations ...

I worked for a guy when I was in the Air Force. He was a Lieutenant Colonel at the time, and I was a Major. We were talking in his office, and he said his family was no longer going to go to this new restaurant in town (Mom and Pop place, not a chain). "Why not?" I asked. "Because they are racist," he said. "What makes you say that?" I asked. "Well," he said, "my son and his friends went there last Friday night, and they waited almost 45 minutes and NO ONE came to the table to wait on them, so they left." "Huh," I said ... "my wife and I went there last week too, and we waited almost an hour for service. Their service is really slow!" And the restaurant went out of business in just a couple months.

Another story: When I was around 15, my Dad and I went on a trip. We stopped at a motel for the night, and I walked next door to the McDonalds. It was late and the door was locked, so I went around to the drive through window. They opened the window, and I ordered what I wanted ... when they brought the food to the window, I reached out with $20 in my hand ... the lady said, "Oh, you are going to pay? We thought you were trying to get free food that we throw away when it is closing time." Should I have been offended? Would I have viewed that situation differently if my skin were a different color?

One more story from the military: I was instructed to attend annual anti-discrimination training (required for all). As the seminar began, the instructor said that the seminar was "non-attribution", meaning whatever is said within the room stays there. He then went on to say that "discrimination is always wrong," and I challenged that assertion. As an example, I said, "What if I am walking down the street, and on the sidewalk coming my way is a disheveled looking white guy who is weaving back and forth across the pavement ... and so I cross the street to walk on the side with the black guy who is wearing a business suit and carrying a brief case. Didn't I just discriminate against the white guy?" But we make decisions like that all the time.

Sometimes when the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.


*******************************************************
He said, "You're -- You're not waiting anymore, are you, Chris?"
 
Posts: 35 | Location: Dallas, Texas | Registered: 10 November 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by C. M. Christopher:
Thanks for posting the link. Not sure why I owe anyone an "explanation" though.

You're entirely welcome! And you don't owe us anything. I wouldn't want to talk about it, either.


"Live Forever!"
 
Posts: 6904 | Location: 11 South Saint James Street, Green Town, Illinois | Registered: 02 October 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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It's not racism, it's business policy.

They're not cages, they're walls made of chain link.
 
Posts: 7183 | Location: Dayton, Washington, USA | Registered: 03 December 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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