It's cool how Ray Bradbury showed the translation of Montag going from happy to depressed to happy again because you can actually see what things were going wrong in his life and what was wrong with the society that he lived in, and how the government had a big affect on whether or not people could be happy. Why do you think the government had such a big part on peoples'lives?

Good question Monica..
I think that the government played a huge role in the book, and it seems like they basically controlled all of the people. It doesn't seem like people could actually think for themselves, and they just did what the government told them too. The only people that step outside these borders are people like Montag, Faber, or Granger. If only more people realized how unhappy they actually were, then maybe they could fight the government instead of letting them control everyone.

I think that I will have to dissagree about the people not being happy, some of them were probably very happy. If all of the people were unhappy, there would be Montags everywhere. I know that Millie was happy because she left Montag for her life of bliss. I do agree on the part of how the government controlled the people's lives. They did, but then again they didn't. There weren't any speed limits on the streets, there weren't any curfews, they people could do just about whatever they wanted. The other side of the government is that it had a price for all of this "fun" freedom. The only things that it required was no books and accept the war draft. But then again, all this fun could be the governments plan. All the fast, exhilerating entertainment and the violent and mind numbing television could be it's plan to decensitise the people. They're all little soldiers, but they might not know it. They have no attachment to a family member if they die, they have no fear, and they just don't care. I don't know about the rest of you, but it sounds like the perfect soldier to me.

Personally, I don't think that the people in the story were happy. Millie just left Montag for her "life of bliss" because she was scared. She was scared of the government, she was scared of the firemen burning her house, and she was scared of the peoples' reactions. So if people, such as Millie, are scared of their own government, then that basically just tells everything. They are not happy. No one should be afraid to live thier life the way they want to, and in the book, it is clearly shown that they can't live it like that. People lived wondering which neighbor's house will be burned next or what they will do to get through the day. It didn't seem like people even had a life. They didn't care for children, they had divorces after divorces, they sat in front of a T.V. all day, and they gossiped. How could you possibly be happy living like that. I'm sure all the people didn't live like that, but the majority of them did. And for that matter, suicide rates were high, people were hipocrites, and being different was not accepted. This could literally make people go insane. A perfect example would be Montag. So, judging from the way I read the book, people weren't happy. But who knows, maybe that was the only way people knew HaPpY as...

I agree that I don't think the people were really happy. As someone pointed out, suicide rates were high - a pretty good sign of unhappiness.

The question requires the examination of the meaning of happiness, doesn't it? Is happiness a childish license to do anything one wants? Is it the lack of conflict? It is a lack of personal responsibility? Is it the ability to develop personally and intellectually? Is happiness dependent on personal freedom? Can we be happy when free access to thoughts is limited and when questions result in mysterious disappearances?

For me, any true happiness requires the free exchange of ideas and the freedom to form one's own acquaintances, etc. This freedom means there will be conflict and doubt and fear, but -- as pointed out in F451 and The Matrix trilogy -- truth is more important as it is real. A fake, shallow happiness is not happiness. It is a pseudo-contentment; but not true happiness. It is hard for me to believe that any of them were truly happy. Clarisse, Montag and Faber seem to come close, but everyone else either lived a shallow, meaningless life; or lived in fear of capture and conflict.

Mr. Dark, it sure is nice to see all these new visitors, and so well behaved. They're obviously students. Yours perhaps? Or Imskippers?

A lot of them are raising some really interesting questions. I just read the one on whether Montag or Beatty were really right or wrong. I'd love to wade in on that one, but can't right now. The question of what would have happened if Montag had had a more loving relationship is also pretty interesting. I'm really enjoying the dialog. It affirms what I've posted before, that there are some really good young people out there.

Just get them off tv, and video games, and cut them lose on some ideas. Let these guys lose on some challenging ideas and watch them run with them.


[This message has been edited by Mr. Dark (edited 08-30-2004).]

Beatty was perfectly happy - in a sort of suicidal, cynical, destructive sort of way.
But the question is a good one - who let loose their students on the bradbury board? (better yet, how much of their mark is related to participation on the discussion boards?).
Cheers, Translator

At least this shows there are students out there thinking, regardless of whether it's assigned or not. I think it's great!

Good question Monica! The government had a big affect on peoples' lives. The reason I think the government had such a big role on the peoples' lives was to control everyone. The government's idea is to not let anyone think about the bad things, or not even think at all. They just spoon-fed people things through the parlor walls. Montag realized that he actually was not happy. If only more people realized this, they could probably fight the government.
If you think about it, the government in the book was a slight form of Communism. The Communist government controlled everyone and told them what to do. I don't know how anyone could live like that and not fight for your right.

Why did the goverment take so much time to make everyone happy? I think that the question is rather simple. The goverment did that so that they could do many things without being questioned. If everyone minded their own business then everyone would never bother to ask any questions. And I think that that is the way that the goverment wanted. The people, most of them, probable were happy, but they were misled. I think that is was a false happiness on that is applied through forgetfullness. And that was supplied by the wall TV, that people watched all day. There are several examples of this goverment control is where all the architects stopped putting porches on houses because they didn't want people to have time to think and come up with ideas. And if you noticed, society had adapted to this way of thinking and doing, becasue a thinker, like Clarisse, was looked down at by society and looked at like she was wierd because she thought.

The government had such power over the people because they were never told the government was working against them, nor were they ever going to be told. The people that knew the government was not doing the right thing were the ones that were reading the books. The people that read the books probably looked at the "normal" people and thought of them to be drones, they followed the same path and never thought of anything. Even if the people who read books tried to make a stand, they would just have a fire truck pull up to their house the next day and burn all of the books and evidence that they contained on what they wanted everyone to know. The government seems to know too much about each individual in the book and that is pretty scary, having no privacy at all and not being able to trust anyone with any of your secrets. If you have no voice or privacy, there is no way that you can be happy at all, but the "normal" people in the story seemed to not notice any of this and pretended to be happy. They only thought they were happy because they were told that is how they were supposed to feel and they believed it, which is how the government controlled them so well, they were able to make the people believe in what they were saying.

[This message has been edited by klugebry000 (edited 09-02-2004).]

quote:

Originally posted by Mr. Dark:
A lot of them are raising some really interesting questions. I just read the one on whether Montag or Beatty were really right or wrong. I'd love to wade in on that one, but can't right now. The question of what would have happened if Montag had had a more loving relationship is also pretty interesting. I'm really enjoying the dialog. It affirms what I've posted before, that there are some really good young people out there.

Just get them off tv, and video games, and cut them lose on some ideas. Let these guys lose on some challenging ideas and watch them run with them.


[This message has been edited by Mr. Dark (edited 08-30-2004).]

i totally agree dark this is really great

I think that the government had a large impact on the people of Fahrenheit 451's happiness. The government would candy coat things and make problems such as war seem like there was nothing wrong when really there was a large crisis at hand. For one thing, the people in this time have a war being brought upon them. The government tells the people about this, but they say that the war is going to be short and only last for 48 hours. Now, naturally, we know that the war is not going to last for only 2 days at the maximum. But because they do not want their people to be unhappy about the coming war, they just tell them this and the people choose to believe it because they are afraid of feeling worried or upset about the war. Another great example of this involves the mechanical hound when they are chasing Montag down after the murders he had made. The parlor follows every move that the hound makes in the chase for Montag from a helicopter camera following the hound. At first, the hound is real close on to Montag's case. But, when they realize that Montag has been lost, they send the hound after a different man that was wandering the streets at night and then when the hound strikes they celebrate, saying that they brought down the fugitive. Even though they did not take down Montag, they pretended they did because they want the people to be happy and not have to fear that a fugitive was on the loose. So,in conclusion, the government played a large role in the people of Fahrenheit 451's lives by covering every problem up and making it seem like it wasn't a big deal so that people would not get upset and remain happy.

I think that because this book was written in the fiftys after world war two and the Great Depression, that Bradbury was trying to across that everyone was unhappy and thought up a new way to make everyone happy, being controlled by the government. Obviosly not everyone was happy so the people who weren't happy wre hated and despised. I'm not sure but hating and depspising someone doesn't sound like happiness to me. I think inside everyone they knew the government was wrong and wanted to take action, so the miserable people tok action and they were jealous.