No...not the plot, or story lines... but the book itself, the 'stuff'... bindings and the like. See, I really did mean Tech Stuff, like in Technical....

Was reading that publishers are getting so cost conscious, trying to cut corners where possible, that some are using glues that don't work, and it's causing an uproar in the libraries, for one. Besides using low-grade glues, they are also turning to cheap paper stock and inks.

The list of worst offenders was compiled by a fellow named John Clark, of the Maine State Library, in Augusta. He's also the man behind the "Hall of Shame", a Web site gaining international attention by exposing defective imprints.
Click on, or type into finder: www.Powerlink.net/Wyvern/Shame.htm

The worst publisher on the list is...
AOL Time Warner....that's Warner and Little Brown imprints.
Others, were Knopf, Simon and Schuster, William Morrow, St. Martin's, Penguin Putnam, Harper Collins !! and Scholastic.

(Gee I see at least 3 publishers that print Bradbury books....)

Interesting to note, there is a Clark invented rating system:
"Mad Cows" are books that have been reported once. "Roaches" have been reported two to four times. "Real Dogs" have been reported 5 to 10 times. And "Absolute Stinkers" are the ones that are reported over 10 times.

Anyone ever come across the problem?


[This message has been edited by Nard Kordell (edited 02-24-2003).]

My paperback copies of the Toynbee convector
come unglued, and or split at the binding. Which is frustrating.

I have gotten so frustrated with the rising cost and declining quality of paperbacks, I hardly ever purchase them any more.

What is even more alarming to me, however, is that I have purchased new hardcover books where the binding was terrible and would crack after very little use. This frustrates me to no end. When I buy a hardcover, I expect that book to last a lifetime. If it doesn't, I definitely feel cheated.

With paperbacks (except the expensive higher-quality literary ones) I've never really had an expectation that they would last a lifetime, so I'm not as disappointed when they inevitably fall apart. It bugs me, but it does not represent a shattered illusion.


They have been re-releasing some of the Bradbury 'canon' in hardcover, and I have purchased, "The Illustrated Man," "Dandelion Wine" and a few others in recent-edition hard cover issues.



[This message has been edited by Mr. Dark (edited 02-25-2003).]

For the past several years, Publishers Weekly was/is printing "The Cuffies"--off-the-cuff awards by children's booksellers on the year's best and worst, to appear in the same issue as the year's bestsellers. The one for January 5, 1998 listed "Most Unusual Complaint About a Book" as "It fell apart after six months of use in the library." It doesn't explain what's unusual about that complaint. Is it that books so rarely fall apart it was unusual to hear about it, or that books so often fall apart no one should complain if it's a pile of unbound pages after six months' normal use?

Being in the printing field for quite a while, I've had similiar problems with "glue" and..."paper". One time I did some thousands of labels for casettes. Less than 10 yrs later, all the ones I have have had the labels pop off like 'twern't nuttin'.
Had books that we had bound, totally break apart, every one. Ouch! There's all kinds of paper, left over runs, damaged by moisture, that are sold in huge train car loads to someone trying to get a deal. Drives "pressmen" crazy. Doesn't run right. The stop and start of the printing presses causes imbalances of color, and lots of waste ...

By the way...there is a 'BIG' book manufacturer's and bindery exposition in New York City this upcoming week...(actually the Expo is the largest book publishing technology event in North America), held from March 3-5, 2003 ... at the 'Hilton New York'. This would be a real treat to visit. Sorry have to miss it, but next year hopefully....

[This message has been edited by Nard Kordell (edited 02-26-2003).]

People in this forum here should learn to more properly reply to a seemingly interesting topic

OleManiaC:

I have read through your new comments and various postings, and wonder if you are just not connecting with a common version of reality (i.e., logic-based) or if you are simply over my head. Many of your comments seem post hoc and I can't find or create a connection between your post and the topic.

I'm assuming some language barrier issues as a possibility, as your profile indicates you are from Norway.

I love the international nature of the board, I'm just not sure I connect with much of your input. Can you explain your little codes at the end of some of your postings? Provide a translation (i.e., P: or P--)?

Mr. Dark, I can't tell if you are being, um, serious or not, but I believe the "little codes" are emoticons. For example

:P

is someone sticking out their tongue at you. That outta clear up the question of if someone is being over your head or not.

Thanks. I actually wasn't thinking visually/graphically.

My kids use the msn Instant Messaging boards and their emoticons are actually little pictures, rather than just letter-based symbols. I have used them occasionally just to be able to tell myself I am only partially pre-historic.

However, with this embarrassing gaffe, I realize that I actually am a bit pre-historic.

See...
I post one of those topics that is so darn
interesting ...that we arrive at a discussion of ....symbols of internet-language....

Great !

In that case, a topic that should be discussed....Is....
....is there a dictionary out there in foggy ether -land of cyberspace....that explains and defines if not all, at least some ....of the major symbols?

I am familiar with is ' lol '...., which means.. .""laugh out loud "".

( MR. DARK...note that I, too, find familiarity with the T-Rex....and the beginnings of Amber... )

Also, on a 'lightier' note, my Web -Site is coming around. Should be complete (almost) by end of week.... by then, only left with putting caption of pictures, and a little Bio. Will add things as time goes on.... Still need to come up with a Web-Site Domain Name. Will have about 10 pieces of music that I've composed (45 second samplings)...some paintings, and a bunch of Bradbury photos. (Will add more as time goes by..). Included will be a photo ol' Wilson Tucker gave me back in the early 1970's....of Ray Bradbury and Forry Ackerman taken in front of the 'apartment?' of Forry Ackerman (whom we've discussed a bit lately here). Photo was taken in the 1940's. What a young Bradbury and 4E.

For a Web-Site....Nard.com ...was actually available this last Friday...used to belong to a singer in Europe named Nard B(something or other). Appears that he dropped the Web Site name, and lo and behold ... I had a chance to pick it up. Gosh darn if some company in Paris didn't beat me to it. Guess it must have been available for just a couple days....

NOTE::::::
It's amazing when you think about it... the wide range of reach that the internet has.....It is unfeasible that in this little tiny box on my desk, I can actually 'watch' people walking live on the streets of most major cities of the world, hear most all of the music of the world, listen to radio stations everywhere, listen to the conversation of pilots 'round the world....and see the little 'cartoon' airplanes in the sky and know their speed and altitude; with Quark Xpress (installed) I can design and print letterheads and brochures, I can communicate for a job opening, I can look out from far out in space and see my house... Come On !!!! THIS IS CRAZY! No one would believe this..... yet here it is............

The only ones that believe all of this fully ...are the young. They don' t know that things like this are impossible......




[This message has been edited by Nard Kordell (edited 04-07-2003).]

I, also, am in awe of the technology. I'm in awe of how quickly our world of communications is changing. But I also am moved by Bradbury's comments on this technological growth in a great essay in the book, "A Chapbook for Burnt-Out Priests, Rabbis and Ministers". In an essay called, "G.B.S.: Refurbishing The Tin Woodman; Science Fiction With A Heart, A Brain, And the Nerve!" Bradbury reminds us of the following:

"The computer only LOOKS like a machine. It is the neuron endings, gastric juices, lifeblood, sweat, and ganglion fire that hide within, masking its stuffs with wires, fused by ten thousand instant welds. I have never wondered at such. Visiting Apple Computer or any other electronic gizmo works, the the tour guide said, 'Isn't that wonderful?' I cried, 'No!' Shocked, they asked me what I meant. 'I mean,' said I, 'IT is not wonderful. YOU are wonderful. You dreamed it. You blueprinted it. you built it. You infused it with process, with dream, with electronic imagination. It does not know it exists. You exist. You are the god I worship. A computer connot best Kasporov. A legion of flesh-and-blood brains hid in a computer might. All hail Kasparov, all hail Apple battalions.' Man is, after all, the ghost in the contraption."

I love that he recognizes the beauty of the "machines," but also vigorously acknowledges that what makes them live and work is man's flesh-and-blood brain, work and creativity.

In the same essay, he bemoans science-fiction's sometime preoccupation with machinery instead of with the humanity behind (or interacting with) the machinery.

"Much of science fiction of course has collapsed in a tangle of robot legs. Too many imaginative writers have not seen the human forest for the mechanical talking trees. They have busied themselves computerizing rockets and rarely questioned any ramshackle philosophy of what in hell to do with them."

This reminds me of why I love his stories. They are about people in particular and humanity in general. They live and stay relevant because of that.

As to the growth of technology, Thoreau, prior to the civil war, asked the question: What good is the telegraph connecting us across the oceans if we have nothing to say to one another but gossip?

It is the humanity behind the technology that matters. It is how technology impacts humanity that matters. Bradbury never forgets that -- in his stories, in his poems, in his prose.

quote:

Originally posted by Mr. Dark:

As to the growth of technology, Thoreau, prior to the civil war, asked the question: What good is the telegraph connecting us across the oceans if we have nothing to say to one another but gossip?

Maybe that is the nature of Ray's supposed rant against chat rooms. Before this board went online, a fan-run board existed (pulled before this one started so they were never in competition), on which (besides yours truly) about the only sign of intelligent life was a man who directed some of Ray's plays. Unless he is posting here unannounced under an assumed name, I never was able to get him to this board, and he never explained Ray's chat room rant. Anyone know?

I know this is an older message, and one which rather got off the subject, but....

I think that just about every paperback book is likely to fall apart given enough time, or else the pages will get very brittle and turn to dust, given the poor quality of the paper used for them. That's partly why I buy only hardcovers, for the most part. Also, it's much more satisfying to read a hardcover--I enjoy the larger and more substantial format.

With hardcovers selling for between twenty and thirty dollars, however, you would assume that they would be manufactured more carefully! The main problem, I think, is that the pages of a lot of books aren't sewn together anymore. Large hardcovers that are only glued together are much more likely to experience problems down the line. My copy of The Stories of Ray Bradbury (the large volume from 1980) has completely fallen apart--the pages have come right out of the book. I need to replace that one, but since it is still readily available, I haven't made a rush to do that as of yet.

My other pet peeve with modern hardcovers is that often the long edges of the pages (opposite the binding) aren't trimmed after the book is put together. This means that when the book is closed the back edge of the volume is much more likely to collect dust--it gives a generally messy appearance, and it makes the pages harder to turn when reading the book as well. My copy of the latest Avon hardcover edition of Dandelion Wine is this way--the size of the pages varies by as much as 1/8 of an inch, very sloppy. (But my Avon copies of Something Wicked and Martian Chronicles are neatly trimmed--go figure....)

(Another complaint with the latest Avon Bradbury hardcover releases is that they are too darn small! I would have preferred a more substantial size--but then, I guess they wanted to keep costs down--and a small hardcover is still more durable than a paperback.)

So, with even expensive hardcovers being poorly put together, I'm often willing to shell out a little extra cash for "deluxe" editions that are well made. (Picked up the deluxe version of the latest Potter book Order of the Phoenix a couple of weeks ago--very nice, with slipcase, cloth-covered boards and illustrated endpapers, and made with high quality paper. But the pages weren't sewn together--argh!)

I've been very happy with those books published by the Folio Society--have a lot of them here. (Latest acquisitions--White's The Once and Future King as well as The Great Fire of London.) All of this publisher's books are great, beautifully bound and illustrated, in slipcases. Unfortunately, no Bradbury titles in their catalogue. And of course the Easton Press and Franklin Library put out very nice books--several Bradburys published by the two companies--but they do tend to be expensive.

Sorry to go on and on and on....



[This message has been edited by octobercountry (edited 07-03-2003).]

octobercountry::

There is definitely a market for people who truly love well made books. Easton Press is one that has at least handsome looking books. Pages that are ragged at the edges are a throwback to the old days when most all books were done that way. Go back further, and you had to slit-open nearly every page. Sometimes, you may come across very old books in a bookstore, and some of the pages are not even opened on the edges. meaning, obviously... those pages were never read... There are glues out there that will NOT fall apart... but they increase the costs...Paper and ink have gone up incredibly high lately... and it has been going up up up every year for years... Many Canadian paper mills disappeared.
Nowadays, a bookstore pays about 1/2 what the cover price is....It varies.

But getting back to the original idea of this posting, there IS a market out there for well-made books, and am sure there are bookbinders who value their work. But unless you discover some incredibly inspiring writer and publish and book- bind their work yourself... or find a way to publish and bind known authors without going to the poorhouse, one is left at the doorstop of accountants and madmen in high places of printing and production...
(There MUST be excellent glue out there weaiting to be discovered by the printing/binding industry)... ((or..how about ANOTHER way to bind books?))

I have joined the group that hardly ever buys paperbacks anymore. The new Potter book is pretty well done. My daughter and I are both Potter fans (she read hers in a day and a half, I should finish mine this weekend), and I asked my brother, who was in England, to get us a British edition of "HP: The Order of the Phoenix". When it got here and you open the book, the binding "creases/cracks" as you open it. The American version, while it may not be sewn, does open flat, which seems to indicate better binding.

I think the uneven edges is an attempt to replicate the old way books were made, but I prefer the even cut edges, as I like to be able to flip through the book as I look for sections I want to check out.

I'm glad to see the Avon hardcovers come out. They've redone several of the "classic" Bradbury books from when I was first turned on to him. The Dandelion Wine I'm reading now is one of these editions. They are a bit on the small size, but I'm glad to see them out.