quote:

Originally posted by embroiderer:
THIS HAS BEEN an ONGOING survey.

"Our money says In God We Trust, but it's against the law to pray in school."

- Larry Norman

Ask the Bishop

Q: The Church of England apologized to Charles Darwin last fall, nearly 150 years after he published his most famous work, for its initial rejection of his theories. The church conceded that it was over-defensive and over-emotional in dismissing Darwin's ideas, and it called "anti-evolutionary fervour" an "indictment" of the Church.

The bold move is certain to dismay sections of the church that believe in creationism and regard Darwin's views as directly opposed to traditional Christian teaching. The apology, which was written by the Rev. Dr. Malcolm Brown, the Church's director of mission and public affairs, says that Christians in their response to Darwin's theory of natural selection repeated the mistakes they made in doubting Galileo's astronomy in the 17th century. The statement read, "Charles Darwin: 200 years from your birth, the Church of England owes you an apology for misunderstanding you and, by getting our first reaction wrong, encouraging others to misunderstand you still. We try to practice the old virtues of "faith seeking understanding" and hope that makes some amends."

Opposition to evolutionary theories is still "a litmus test of faithfulness" for some Christian movements, the Church admits. It says that such attitudes owe much to a fear of perceived threats to Christianity.

A: Thanks for your e-mail and the news that the Church of England has apologized to Charles Darwin for rejecting evolution. It is better late than never. My sense is that this action is more embarrassing than helpful. Darwin doesn't need the Church's apology. His thesis is now accepted academically across the world. Evolution is taught in fourth-grade science books. Medical science assumes its truth and the discovery of DNA took away the last vestige of the suggestion that it was still "an unproved theory." The fact that there are some benighted souls in the world who believe that quoting the book of Genesis can somehow counter the insights of Charles Darwin, or that it is their Christian duty to resist Darwin, is hardly determinative in the debate.

It is a tragedy that the Church officially resisted Darwin for the last 150 years, but that is quite typical of church leaders' behavior. Recall that it was in December of 1991 that the Vatican finally admitted that Galileo was correct. This was about 40 years after space travel had begun. If Galileo had not been correct, our spacecraft would have collided with the sky that separated heaven from earth.

I would suggest the leaders of the Church of England must now practice what that apology to Darwin suggests that we believe. For Darwin attacks the basic Christian myth of a perfect creation, the fall into sin, the divine rescue carried out by Jesus and the restoration through faith to our status as those created in the image of God. If we evolved from single cells into complex self-conscious creatures then there was no perfection from which to fall, no fall into sin, no need for a divine rescue and no capacity to be restored to something which we have never been. This means that the whole way of telling the Jesus story must be rethought, and this reformulation will threaten church leaders deeply. Clergy on Sunday mornings can no longer address "fallen sinners." The mantra that "Jesus died for my sins" will have to be retired. The traditional meaning of the Eucharist will have to be revised. We will have to recognize that we are now addressing not those who need to be rescued from a fall but those who have not yet achieved the status of being fully human. Jesus must then empower us to be fully human; he cannot rescue us from sin.

I'm glad to see the Church of England begin to enter the 20th century. I will be happier when they finally begin to enter the 21st century.

– John Shelby Spong

Spaulding! You are one lost boy!

quote:

Originally posted by Phil Knox:
You are one lost boy!

...but I am so found!

Doug Spaulding! If you think reading Spong you find truth, you are sadly mistaken. He denies everything cherished and basic concerning Christ. You are duped and don't know it.

Oh Boy, Here I go again. I know it will be useless, but I am compelled to offer up some real information here for those of you who are believers, in the hope that you will go and find out where the stories that you believe originated. I have read Gerald Massey and was intrigued by the fact that the source of the Christian stories is to be found in the Egyptian religion of the Pharaohs dating thousand of years before the proposed date of the Christian origins. Massey is hard to read, he was writing in period of 1890-1912 and the English is not what we easily speak today.

I digress. A scholarly new book has been released with the title Christ in Egypt, The Horus-Jesus Connection by D. M. Murdock. This nearly 600 page book traces the stories and beliefs of the Egyptians and demonstrates with great scholarship how these became adjusted and crafted into the canonical gospels of the New Testament. What was said of Horus, Osiris and Isis is almost word for word the story of The Christ called Jesus, the trinity and Mary. The Christian ideas were in fact then adapted from the Egyptian religion and given new clothing to attract the then modern Roman audience ready for a unifying, or catholic, belief system to replace all the others in favor at that time. All of the important tenants of Christianity are to be found in the Book of the Dead, and the Pyrimid Texts and a detailed explaination as to how they parallel the same in Cristianity can be understood with a little reading and some questioning.

The truly remarkable fact is that these Egyptian stories are telling a tale of the Earth, the Sun, and The Twelve who are in our heaven as the stars known as the Zodiac. Murdock calls this Astrotheology and it is amazing that our remote civilizations even had such knowledge as to how the heavens work and how the Sun and the Earth mark time together as the seasons, the equinoxes and the soltices and the crossing of those events at four points in the heavens and at four times of the year so cleverly adapted to the Christian story as the important events in the celbration of Christianity.

If your mind is open, get a copy and decide for yourself what is truth and what is not. If your mind is closed, be happy and well. Those who, like myself, must always find an answer by prondering as to how things are what they seem to be, will find some new ideas here that may seem uncomfortable at first, but after looking at the data, should help to relieve stress and guilt from many lives that suffer from that malady because someone told them stories and made them feel uncomfortable if they questioned the validity of those stories as anything but truth. Good reading to all.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: patrask,

Some people have also said Christ was influenced by the teachings of Buddha, but just because He may have been familiar with some older traditions doesn't mean Christ Himself didn't exist. This is like saying Davy Crockett couldn't exist because of supposed similarities to Daniel Boone, or the like. If these ideas have been around for 100 years or more and people haven't given up on Christ yet there is no reason to panic.

quote:

Originally posted by patrask:
What was said of Horus, Osiris and Isis is almost word for word the story of The Christ called Jesus, the trinity and Mary. The Christian ideas were in fact then adapted from the Egyptian religion and given new clothing to attract the then modern Roman audience ready for a unifying, or catholic, belief system to replace all the others in favor at that time. All of the important tenants of Christianity are to be found in the Book of the Dead, and the Pyrimid Texts and a detailed explaination as to how they parallel the same in Cristianity can be understood with a little reading and some questioning.

The connection is indeed huge. We have a word for this concept - it's called midrash.

quote:

If your mind is open...

You said a dirty word.

If a person doesn't have an encounter with Christ, then they go on and on and on and on with all sorts of connections they believe invalid the reality of God in Christ. The people that crucified Christ could not make the connection. They could not see. That is why Christ even prayed that his Father forgive them because they know not what they do.

When you say, I accept Christ, this is what you are inviting:

Christ said he was the very nature of Hope. whatever Hope is, Christ said he was the author.

Christ said he was the very nature of Love. Whatever Love is, Christ said he was the author.

The list goes on forever. But if you are blind, you are blind. I was blind. And I see thru a glass darkly, like peering thru the tiniest pin hole on a twilight night. I can hardly see the marvelous wonder of Christ, but I begin to see. And nothing comparable in anything one experiences in life.

quote:

Originally posted by patrask:
Oh Boy, Here I go again. I know it will be useless, but I am compelled to offer up some real information here for those of you who are believers, in the hope that you will go and find out where the stories that you believe originated. I have read Gerald Massey and was intrigued by the fact that the source of the Christian stories is to be found in the Egyptian religion of the Pharaohs dating thousand of years before the proposed date of the Christian origins. Massey is hard to read, he was writing in period of 1890-1912

I wonder why no serious or respected scholar takes up this position, and why you reference a book from the days of atlantis myth fervor, social Darwinism, and various occult hilarities!

And D.M. Murdock? A legitimate scholar? Hah!

Must we always return to Christ-as-ancient-alien-masonic-sun cult conspiracy? It's so droll, so boring!

Ya know what Jesus was doing during the "missing" (ooh!) years berween 12 and 30?
What every other devout traditional Jewish boy was doing; learning his father's trade. (Of course, in this case the trade of His stepfather.)
Also traditional are being able to question your elders at length about religious matters at around age 12; and deciding whether or not to continue in your father's trade at around age 30.
Ring any bells?



Hey! Ya know what I found on this web site?
It took some doing as these were quite buried, but there are some who have actually written som very interesting posts about the writing of one Ray Bradbury!!!

You forgot Krishna and Mithra (for starters.)

quote:

Originally posted by Nico:

quote:

Originally posted by patrask:
Oh Boy, Here I go again. I know it will be useless, but I am compelled to offer up some real information here for those of you who are believers, in the hope that you will go and find out where the stories that you believe originated. I have read Gerald Massey and was intrigued by the fact that the source of the Christian stories is to be found in the Egyptian religion of the Pharaohs dating thousand of years before the proposed date of the Christian origins. Massey is hard to read, he was writing in period of 1890-1912

I wonder why no serious or respected scholar takes up this position, and why you reference a book from the days of atlantis myth fervor, social Darwinism, and various occult hilarities!

And D.M. Murdock? A legitimate scholar? Hah!

Must we always return to Christ-as-ancient-alien-masonic-sun cult conspiracy? It's so droll, so boring!

I challenge you to READ THE BOOK. Want a copy? I will order one for you, if you will read it cover to cover, and then tell me what you think.
The Egyptian origins of Christianity is not a new thing, and is not a woo woo idea, and has been observed by many scholars over the years following the discovery and translation of the Rosetta Stone. What we are dealing with here is a religion that was based on knowledge of the heavens, how the Earth moved agaisnt the background of the fixed stars, which became the Zodiac, also known as The Twelve.

The four times of the year when the SUN can be seen to be in a special condition are:
June 21, which became St. John's on June 24th, after the three days of standing still at the highest point in the sky, and then diminished, as was said of John the Baptist;
September 22, which is the autumnal equinox, when the time of visible SUN light and darkness are equal;
December 22, winter soltice, when the time of the visible SUN is at a minimum and the night is at its longest, three days later, on December 25, the SUN rises again and is reborn as it makes its way to higher and higher elevations as measured against the meridian overhead at noon; it is increased, just as it was minimised following Summer soltice on ST. John's Day;
March 20, Vernal equinox, when the SUN crosses the ecliptic and again the time of visible SUN light is equal to the time of darkness. The SUN is reborn in its strength and the light of the world is again stronger than the darkness.

Thus, there are four CROSSINGS, at approximately three month intervals. This fact was noted in the SIGN of the CROSS, still seen on older Christian churches, as the equal armed cross within a circle, denoting the four cardinal points of the SUN at its change points during the year.

Much of what has been written in the four canonical gospels have their origins in this ancient knowledge and can be traced back to the Egyptian Book of the Dead, and the Pyramid Texts, as was noted by even many Christian Egyptoligists, and "legitimate historians".

Following the destruction of the Library of Alexandria, by those who would have the knowledge contained therein lost to mankind, the knowlege of the Egyptian legacies was supressed until the Rosetta Stone was recoded. Thus, the period of the 1800's to the early 1900's was a time of uncovering what had been lost and was not available to the common person. Such is not the case today, with the internet, anyone of a questioning mind can find the truths there and begin to ask why are these stories so alike, i.e., those in the gospels and what was believed prior to the Christian beginnings?

Read this book, and check the references, and make up your own mind, if it is an open one. I, for one, have seen the light and it is the SUN.

I think about where scripture talks about Jesus' return as a thief in the night. Think about that. A thief in the night. I would say that is a terrifying thing. A horrifying incident. A screaming in the night from those at home.

If you don't know who the thief in the night is, then he will be the thief that takes your life. It's amazing how these supposedly high intellectuals with a background of travesty disguised as truth seem to be unafraid. They forget that Fear of the Lord is just the beginning of knowledge.

Of course, this is just foolishness to them. Sad! They have become God unto themselves, like Bradbury suggests.

quote:

Originally posted by patrask:
Such is not the case today, with the internet, anyone of a questioning mind can find the truths there

Oh, you can find many people who claim to know the truth on the internet! Of that I have no doubt.