quote:

Originally posted by Phil Knox:
tinkerbell: It's a sorry state that you don't know where you came from, why you are here, and where you are going. And make statements to say, in effect, that no one knows. As a Catholic, I was taught about those basic things in Cathecism in 2nd grade.

Oops! That must be the year I was off school with glandular fever.

quote:

Originally posted by tinkerbell:

Phil - What about Sid James as the randy verger?

Of course. I can see it now...

Barbara Windsor: Are you a verger?
Sid James: What, at my time of life? Wha wha wha wha.

(Wha wha wha being the best transliteration I can come up with for the trademakr Sid James laugh.)

I decided to move this post from the request thread:

Sorry, fanboy, but there is more evidence (if you look) against this "missing years" stuff. Lots of folks really, really want to believe something other than that which is accepted Tradition. (It's amazing how many of these stories and "documents" appeared after Christianity had spread; e.g. Krishna was invented in the 6th or 7th century to compete with the then growing New Religion in India).
The real evidence indicates that what Jesus was doing from age 12 until beginning His ministry was (guess what?) being a good, devout, traditional Jew! He was able to question his elders at age 12, because that was part of Jewish tradition. Also part of this tradition is school and learning one's father's trade (in this case that of His presumed father Josph's trade of carpentry), and then, at age 30, deciding what one wants to do.
And we know what He decided.

Having said all this (which can be verified incontrovertibly), I still say the discussion belongs on that other thread.

quote:

Originally posted by tinkerbell:

quote:

Originally posted by Phil Knox:
tinkerbell: It's a sorry state that you don't know where you came from, why you are here, and where you are going. And make statements to say, in effect, that no one knows. As a Catholic, I was taught about those basic things in Cathecism in 2nd grade.

Oops! That must be the year I was off school with glandular fever.

It's just a good thing that tinkerbell had that glandular thing, else she might have been subject to the cathecism and been told by others who she was and where she is going, and etcetera - of course, it would have saved her from having to do any thinking herself!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Doug Spaulding,

quote:

Originally posted by tinkerbell:
None of us knows from where we came, why we're here, where we're going.

Well tinkerbell, the very fact that you are admitting that you don't know means that you're further along than most!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Doug Spaulding,

quote:

Also part of this tradition is school and learning one's father's trade (in this case that of His presumed father Josph's trade of carpentry...

But Joseph wasn't a carpenter, the term translates "craftsman", and can be applied to any kind of craft. It had nothing to do with woodworking, tradition notwithstanding.

In the Gospels...a tekton (the word used) is a Greek word that meant a designer, construction engineer, or architect. A tekton could build a house, construct a bridge, or design a temple.

It certainly did not identify Jesus and Joseph as woodworkers. More precisely it defined them as men with skills - learned men, who were masters of what they did.

Sorry - carry on discussing "The Missing Years".

Further, Joseph wasn't the "presumed" father. The scripture is very plain that Jesus is Joseph's son.

Nice try.

Doug Spaulding. Again, it depends on what texts you use and what sources you consider authentic.
For instance, in the Planas-Ros text concerning ancient Spain and Rome (very rare), it depicts Joseph as a portly woodworker of tree facsimiles. For whatever reason, perhaps as decoration where trees could not be grown. Cyrus Fields, who layed the Atlantic cable, died in 1890 something, was at the time beginning the writing of the history of Joseph and those like him who created wood projects as copies of plants. It seems that he was vastly interested in wood working while also interested in funding cable projects for communication. [This info was garnered from various sources on the internet. So there!]

quote:

Originally posted by tinkerbell:
None of us knows from where we came, why we're here, where we're going.

Where we came from: No one knows for sure. But since mankind somehow appeared on the Earth only a few million years ago, and managed to take over the planet in short order...adding to that the fact that life has existed on Earth for over 150 million years...this points to possible outside help, and not necessarily of Divine origin.

Why We're Here: Because this is our home.

Where We're Going: Outward, or eventually we will perish as a species. The planet can only support so many human beings. We are approaching that limit.

I thought everyone knew where we came from. Guess like ol' granny used to say, there's always one in every crowd that don't.

This last summer I drove for a couple days, that is to say hours, and hours, and hours, thru four states, and there was nothing! I drove most of the day thru Arizona and there was Nothing. A little town here, a little town there. Yep! We're up to our chins with people!

I assume embroiderer means there is still plenty of room remaining for people. Well, there is physical space, agreed. Supporting them is another matter...

Braling II, There are period documents in a monastery in India which have been investigated both by Christian westerners and also by Indian religious men.

http://reluctant-messenger.com/issa.htm

As far as I know, the non Biblical historical references proving the existence of Jesus are exremely scarce and non specific, and I don't think that the Bible is really considered an historical document, if you want to be scientific about it. I would say the very existence of Jesus can and has been called into question if you are looking at it from that standpoint. Just as the missing years can be called into question. So, you are on shaky ground either way. You are choosing to believe one thing or another based on your feelings about it.

Here is another interesting perspective from a Muslim standpoint, what it says about Jesus in the Koran

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-india/ch2.html

As far as Krishna having been invented in the 6th or 7th century, I haven't heard that, but perhaps we shall soon get historical evidence on that account because recently the ancient city of Dwaraka has been discovered under the Arabian sea off the coast of Gujarat.

http://www.vina.cc/stories/GENERAL/2005/4/dwaraka.tsunami.html

What this thread needs is a bit of Thomas Wolfe. From "Look Homeward, Angel," Ben Gant and Dr. Coker:

"In Christ's name, Coker," he said, "what's it all about? Are you able to tell me? What in heaven's name are we here for? You're a
doctor--you ought to know something."

Coker continued to look at his cigar. It had gone out again.

"Why?" he said deliberately. "Why should I know anything?"

"Where do we come from? Where do we go to? What are we here for? What the hell is it all about?" Ben cried out furiously in a rising
voice. He turned bitterly, accusingly, on the older man. "For God's sake, speak up, Coker. Don't sit there like a damned tailor's dummy. Say something, won't you?"

"What do you want me to say?" said Coker. "What am I? A mindreader? A spiritualist? I'm your physician, not your priest. I've seen them born, and I've seen them die. What happens to them before or after, I can't say."

"Damn that!" said Ben. "What happens to them in between?"

"You're as great an authority on that as I am, Ben," said Coker. "What you want, son, is not a doctor, but a prophet."

I know I have been rather tough on believers in organized religion here...however, even I believe that Jesus actually existed.

There are too many witnesses with many different writings about Him, personal testimonies, as it were.