quote:

Originally posted by embroiderer:
theoctobercountry: I ditto Phil Knox. I can't seem to get your drift in most of your postings either. You often sound like a leaf blown away by the wind while trying to make do with some sort of religious logic. Christianity and popular culture will always be at war. If you think you'll find some sort of warming suave thru these postings by intermingling the two, you won't.

Well now, that's fine---but I never said anything whatsoever about combining religion and pop culture. What do you mean by that? You seem somewhat confused. As for my logic---I find it somewhat amusing that every time I do make a frank statement (for instance, on the topic of Robertson's false prophecy) I NEVER receive a comment here that plainly and calmly refutes my comment, backed up by any sort of coherent evidence supporting an opposite point of view.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: theoctobercountry,

The issue, octobercountry, seems to be that you can poke a stick at about everyone in every religious denomination (except Muhammad, you get ''obliterated'' on that one). Robertson, the Catholic Church, the Mormons, the Scientologists, the Lutherans, the Jews, Spurgeon, St, Paul, etc etc. all are at the end of the blunt instrument of digging out something unsavory about them. Because that's human nature. The old saying, if you think you can find a perfect church, it won't be perfect once you join it.

Certainly, no one is perfect, and I don't expect to find anyone (religious leader or not) who has not displayed some lapses in judgement.

Robertson's case is something quite apart from this, however. The theology of a man who heads up a huge religious organisation which claims both to speak for God and mirror the viewpoints of conservative Christians across the nation is well worth careful examination. And he is so totally off-kilter in so many ways, I cannot fathom why anyone would question the suitability of such an examination.

The whole prophecy issue is just the tip of the iceberg. (Keep in mind the following: ("Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.")

I honestly have to question whether a group that published the treatise on Halloween (which I previously mentioned) has even the most tenuous grasp of reality. We are talking about serious accusations that witches curse Halloween candy as it is being manufactured in candy factories---said curses are then carried by demons to all children who eat the candy. Seriously, doesn't anyone comprehend the insanity of such statements?

While I haven't even mentioned the more unsavoury aspects of how he amassed his personal fortune (do a Google search for "blood diamonds Pat Robertson" for starters), I'll give Robertson a rest now, because I think I've made my point very clear. It just isn't worth the time to go into any more of this nonsense.

quote:

Originally posted by theoctobercountry:
We are talking about serious accusations that witches curse Halloween candy as it is being manufactured in candy factories---said curses are then carried by demons to all children who eat the candy. Seriously, doesn't anyone comprehend the insanity of such statements?

Hey, Pal, where have you been hiding? This has been an ongoing thing longs as I remember. That's what witches do. I don't get it? You never listen to what witches talk about? Gawds. You got the internet now. Before it was local stuff, on radio programs. Today you got gobs of groups: the Kemetic, Wicca, Earth Religion, Golden Dawn, and others by descriptive names.

Demons carried by objects is as old as history. And, of course, you think it's a fabrication of someone's imbalance. Go explain that one away in scripture when all those money making swine took off off the cliff because they became possessed.

quote:

Originally posted by embroiderer:
theoctobercountry: I ditto Phil Knox. I can't seem to get your drift in most of your postings either.

Fred, be assured that I, and, I'm sure, most others understand your posts perfectly. In fact, they are among the most clearly written on this board.

quote:

Originally posted by theoctobercountry:
I find it somewhat amusing that every time I do make a frank statement (for instance, on the topic of Robertson's false prophecy) I NEVER receive a comment here that plainly and calmly refutes my comment, backed up by any sort of coherent evidence supporting an opposite point of view.

And you never will.

Keep hope. It is simply not possible that you are the only ones to post rational posts. Something else rational will come up.

Scripture refers to those guys as dead in their sin. They just don't know but think they do. It's the most stupid place to be in life. Tangible, palatable arrogance.

quote:

Originally posted by Salamander:
Scripture refers to those guys as dead in their sin. They just don't know but think they do. It's the most stupid place to be in life. Tangible, palatable arrogance.

Are you suggesting that Fred and I are "dead in our sins"? How very "Pat Robertson" of you. Perhaps you could run for the position of prophet and equate your statements with those of God himself! After all, it's only a certain "few" who know what God thinks.

Dead in your sins? Not only am I suggesting it, so is scripture. And scripture also goes on to say that if you don't believe that, you are a liar, like your father the devil. Now, of course, if you wish to twist scripture you can. And if you want to know what God thinks, read scripture. It's open to everyone. Somehow you think it's only open to a select few.

You need to accept Christ, my friend, and get out from under your sin. Sin is always at war with God and yourself. I speak from a lot of experience. I once was dead but now I live, just like the words in Amazing grace. I was arrogant and thought I could bully my way and argue anyone to the ground, like an arm wrestler. What a fool I once was. Are you still a fool, Doug Spaulding?

Ah, Doug, Doug---no use even trying!

Apparently I'm being called "arrogant" based on the handful of posts I've made over the past week regarding Pat Robertson. In those posts, I have merely examined his words and actions, said they were not in line with true Christianity, and then explained WHY I came to these conclusions. I'm not sorry about making my case---doesn't bother me that people seem to take such offence. Because I am still waiting for anyone at all to refute the claims I've made, to provide even a shred of evidence to the contrary.

And as you know, I've barely even scratched the surface. His business ventures (such as his previous affiliation with dictator Mobutu Sese Seko) are unbelievably, jaw-droppingly immoral. All the information is well documented, out there to see for anyone who cares to do the research. However, many people seem to exhibit a distinct unwillingness to open their eyes and use the brains God gave them, to figure out what is and is not acceptable behaviour. Why? I have no idea.

I still welcome any concrete information that will show what I've said about Robertson is untrue, to further the discussion. But barring that, after one last post below, I'm done with this topic.

quote:

Originally posted by theoctobercountry:
Ah, Doug, Doug---no use even trying!

Apparently I'm being called "arrogant" based on the handful of posts I've made over the past week regarding Pat Robertson.

WRONGO!

I'm not even mentioning Pat Robertson. I'm talking about Christianity and your mind set. You don't have a clue what it means to be dead in sin, or anything pertaining to the redemptive power of Christ. Isn't that true? You're off on some tangent with a Pat Robertson that I have no clue about and don't care. He may be well intentioned in some things, off the track on others. I'm talking specifically about the arrogant belief system that resides in one's brain when they are in control of their destiny, sans Christ. Period. Hope you catch my drift now!!

Okay, last post on PR---but really, would you consider even one thing below acceptable in a moral leader who claims to speak God's word? The following statements were paraphrased from on-line sources; any of the events described can be researched by those who care to do so. If you come up with concrete evidence that this material is inaccurate, please feel free to post so I can make a correction.

============================================================
From donations provided by viewers, Robertson bought the Family Channel, sold part of its stock at a personal profit of $90 million, and then sold the rest to right-wing media mogul and FOX owner Rupert Murdoch for $1.82 billion.

In these two financial deals, Robertson and his family took in tens of millions of dollars in pure profits. No money was disbursed to the viewers who made Robertson's millions from these deals possible.


Operation Blessing, also financed entirely through charitable donations from Robertson's viewers, has proved to be a more shaky financial venture for Robertson. First, he used the airplane and resources brought in by Operation Blessing to fly to Zaire (Democratic Republic of the Congo) to purchase diamond mines for Robertson’s company African Development Corporation, to harvest so-called blood diamonds produced by near slave labour.

To win diamond mining rights, Robertson developed a close and friendly relationship with dictator Mobutu Sese Seko, most notorious for his collaboration with the CIA in the assassination of Congolese national liberation movement leader Patrice Lumumba in 1961.

According to a 1996 interview with a former pilot for Operation Blessing, of 40 flights to Zaire in the mid-1990s, only one or two were really related to the humanitarian work that Operation Blessing claimed to its donors would be its main work. The rest, the pilot admitted, were related to developing the blood diamond business.

When that business didn’t pan out due to changing political fortunes in Zaire and Sese Sekos’ overthrow in 1997, Robertson turned to oil speculation. In 1998 he became a main investor in the CENCO Refining Company in California and sought to invest in oil refining in Santa Fe Springs (near Huntington Beach, the site of a major oil spill in 1990).

Environmental activist and local community members who feared that Robertson’s company would pollute the water and air near their homes blocked his speculative venture. In a notorious legal battle, Robertson fought environmental laws and almost the whole state of California before backing out of those operations.

CENCO’s former lawyers sued him for his failure to pay them.

That same year, Robertson used the donations of his flock to set up an offshore mining company in the Cayman Islands called Freedom Gold Limited. By setting the company offshore, taxes could be avoided and connections to Robertson were more difficult to trace.

According to a 2001 Washington Post story, in 1999, Robertson’s Freedom Gold signed a business deal with notoriously corrupt and brutal dictator Charles Taylor of Liberia allowing Robertson’s company to explore and receive gold mining rights in that country.

The deal gave Taylor 10 percent ownership of the company, which was founded with donations by Robertson’s faithful following in exchange for a five-year exploration concession and a 20-year mining claim.

Unfortunately the deal fell apart when President Bush withdrew US support for Taylor in 2003 and forced the embattled dictator to resign in the middle of a violent civil war.

In 2002, after complaining about the legitimacy of President Bush’s subsidies to Christian churches through a so-called faith-based initiatives, Robertson’s Operation Blessing accepted millions in taxpayer money from the administration.

quote:

Originally posted by theoctobercountry:
Okay, last post on PR---but really, would you consider even one thing below acceptable in a moral leader who claims to speak God's word?

AGAIN!! I don't care who Pat Robertson is. Okay? My point was YOU and the issue of being dead in sin and the redemptive power of Christ.

_
One more thing, after reading your post directly above this one: When Pat Robertson ran for President of the United States, he had to run against old man Bush. After losing in the primaries, Pat Robertson said this about Old man George Bush: "He uses the most vile and underhanded methods I have ever seen in politics."

Nobody is perfect.

quote:

Originally posted by Salamander:
Dead in your sins? Not only am I suggesting it, so is scripture. And scripture also goes on to say that if you don't believe that, you are a liar, like your father the devil. Are you still a fool, Doug Spaulding?

So now I'm dead in my sins, a liar, the son of a "devil", and possibly a fool.

Alrighty then, my amphibious friend. And a good day to you!