This is a pretty funny article by the bishop. Funny because it's true. Exactly how much medical evidence does one have to come up with in order to prove a medical point?

Q: I've heard of pastors in our area who tell lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people that "they can change if they turn to Jesus." What can you say to this?

A: What do you say to people who maintain that the earth is flat or that the moon is made of cheese? Ignorance abounds in our world and the statement you quote is profoundly ignorant. There is not a shred of medical or scientific evidence that sexual orientation, which is clearly one of life's givens, is capable of being changed. For clergy persons or anyone else to allow their prejudices to blind them to reality means that they are simply out-of-touch, religious bigots. Perhaps a lawsuit by a victim of such "pastoral counseling" would be in order, to warn clergy and anyone else functioning as a counselor that, prior to dispensing medical advice, they need to be medically trained and certified by some appropriate federal or state agency. No one in our society has the right to practice medicine without a license, not even in the name of religion.

It is worth noting that those organizations that claim to be able to change homosexuals into heterosexuals are all identified with right-wing religious movements. They also refuse to let their data be analyzed and they have a dreadful track record for failure. More importantly they victimize those who become their "patients" for their own financial gain, since they normally collect fees for their services, which are, of course, paid by their victims. This is little more than racketeering under the protection of religion. Racketeering and fraud are crimes that need to be exposed wherever they appear. Trying to cure people of homosexuality is both homophobic ignorance and fraud. I hope you and others will expose these practices for what they are.

– John Shelby Spong

Yes, if we agree with Spong, God cannot do anything and everything. God cannot even change Spong's mind, let along sexual orientation. But, no matter if GRACE doesn't change one's sexual orientation, it still a matter of remaining celebate.
Ooops! I forgot. Spong doesn't believe much in GRACE either. It surely doesn't have an effect on Spong. Problem with Spong is he believes no matter what your orientation, no matter what your "genes" spell out, you should act on them because that's the way God built you. How about if you have the "gene" for being a fatty, should you just continue to EAT!!? Or how about the leaning-to liking a little "lifting of the goods at the store" now and then, you know, a shoplifter. Built into your genes inherited way back six generations. Should we continue to act on that as well? Where do we say Yes, or No? Spong seems a little confused on the issue? Oh, Certainly.

Gotta love Spong. The idea of putting religious belief under government supervision is laughable. Isn't he a bit of a bigot against any form of traditional religion? It's fine to be a bigot as long as you are a bigot like Spong is a bigot.

"They work as described by the mathematics and the faith that we have is that they will continue to work the same way over time. New information may allow us SEE the entities in some new way, like the atomic force microscope that can SEE individual atoms that were not SEEABLE until our time."

Someday, perhaps, we'll be in a position to see God. Until then, we have faith, and we watch God work in our lives. You'll accept one faith (the one created/discovered by man) but not the other (the one revealed by God). It's a choice.

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Originally posted by Mr. Dark:
Gotta love Spong. The idea of putting religious belief under government supervision is laughable. Isn't he a bit of a bigot against any form of traditional religion? It's fine to be a bigot as long as you are a bigot like Spong is a bigot.

He's saying nothing of the kind. What is at question, here, is people saying their religious beliefs are supported by science---which in this case, they are not.

Interesting post, Doug, in light of the fact that the APA recently published a very detailed and comprehensive resolution stating that there is simply no scientific basis ---no evidence at all---that "ex-gay therapies" are the least bit effective.

I also found it interesting that shortly after this report was published, Focus on the Family divested itself of its "Love Won Out" ex-gay conferences, putting Exodus in charge of the endeavour. Supposedly this was due to financial cutbacks at FotF. However, I can't help but wonder if this move was in fact an effort to protect themselves against any potential lawsuits from people complaining about the programme's failure to adhere to any sort of scientific methodology (since it claims to follow established psychological principles).

Timothy Kincaid has written a series of articles that have calmly and rationally picked apart press releases issued by groups like Focus on the Family and Exodus, exposing all the internal fallacies and lapses in logic present. Fascinating reading.

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What do you say to people who maintain that the earth is flat or that the moon is made of cheese? Ignorance abounds in our world and the statement you quote is profoundly ignorant

Laughable. Does anyone who can be taken seriously say this? This is simply a straw man argument. Who are these people saying the earth is flat and the moon is made of cheese. Really, this is simply silly.

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For clergy persons or anyone else to allow their prejudices to blind them to reality means that they are simply out-of-touch, religious bigots. Perhaps a lawsuit by a victim of such "pastoral counseling" would be in order, to warn clergy and anyone else functioning as a counselor that, prior to dispensing medical advice, they need to be medically trained and certified by some appropriate federal or state agency. No one in our society has the right to practice medicine without a license, not even in the name of religion.

Was Christ or Buddha "sanctioned" by a Federal or State Agency? What Federal or State agency do you trust to tell clergy what they can and can't recommend in line with their religious beliefs? What happened to the 1st amendment in this country? Ironically, the left seem to find religious freedom and freedom of speech to be very troublesome. If someone is wrong, refute them with your own arguments. We don't need the power of government dictating our religious claims. Can you not simply refute them through the power of reason and your minds, or must you run behind the skirts of big government to enforce your views on everyone else?

In Spong's answer, it looks to me like he's calling for federal/state certification (control) of clergy. Do you see this differently?

As Bradbury has written, if Catholics (or Mormons or anyone else) don't like his stories, let them get out their typewriters and write their own. When we allow the power of the government to dictate what we can and cannot say, or what we can or cannot believe, we have lost our humanity. Think for yourselves, and let every one else have that right. I'm sick of people running to the government to impose their beliefs and practices on others.

quote:

Originally posted by Mr. Dark:
Who are these people saying the earth is flat and the moon is made of cheese. Really, this is simply silly.

Here you go. Don't know about the cheese thing.

quote:

Originally posted by Mr. Dark:
In Spong's answer, it looks to me like he's calling for federal/state certification (control) of clergy. Do you see this differently?

I think he's calling for common-sense control of clergy.

Doug Spaulding:

There is Science-Fact leaning towards the belief that the moon is made out of Cheese.

Check out the seismic velocity scale for Cheese.

http://www.answerly.com/why-do...-made-out-of-cheese/

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I think he's calling for common-sense control of clergy.

Common sense control of clergy???? WHOSE common sense? Do you really trust the government so much that you want them "controlling" the clergy? They should control our religous beliefs and practices? Heard of the Taliban, my friend? Do you have the slightest idea of WHY the framers were so vociferous about a first amendment?? THIS IS NOT THE REALM OF GOVERNMENT! It is the realm of free individuals to decide. For crying out loud!

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Here you go.

Exactly. Does anyone take this seriously? Don't ban them by government control, out-reason them.

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Originally posted by embroiderer:
Check out the seismic velocity scale for Cheese.

Muenster is a good word.