quote:

Originally posted by fjp451:
If I may offer some common ground for all who may care. When an offense has taken place, the two sides have had a miscommunication occur between them.

Thanks, Frank, for your support on and off the board. You are fully aware, having received my email, that this was no mere misunderstanding or matter of my not appreciating someone's literary opinion or sense of humor. The remarks which were removed were insensitive, direct, utterly uncalled-for, hateful personal attacks. Anyone who didn't see them will just have to take my word for it as I will not have those words repeated on the board. (And, if I happen to not be watching, neither will Phil.)

The comments left to stand contained bad enough accusations, including that I was attacking or censoring anyone's honest literary opinions--which I have never done on this board or anywhere. I find myself disbelieving and dismayed that these conversations were being monitored when these posts were made, and then brushed off when addressed both in a personal email and on the board.

quote:

Originally posted by fjp451:Yes, times have changed. I know. I've seen it firsthand in teaching and coaching situations for many years. Today, and here is where I hope some of you take a bit of this "to heart" and not read this as a blah-blah-blah out of touch waste of cyber-spew, the tendency to bully or apply cruelty is done without a second thought.

However, we only have had your comments by which to evaluate your characters. That's the unfortunate fact of the matter.

Frank, times changing is only the utmost tip of the iceberg. It's the acceptance and encouragement of bullying on all levels of society (including the internet) which is sick and wrong which I protest, not the matter of kids expressing themselves (or adults either.)

What I mean is the whole exonerate the abuser/bully, blame the recipient of abuse (victim isn't quite the word, so I will use target) mentality, as in:

"They don't know any better than to call you" (worthless, stupid, intolerant, insert any other word of choice) "because they are just kids." (Well, who failed to teach them and why did they fail to learn? Not my job; I'm here to talk about Ray Bradbury.)

It seems I am far from the only one voicing these concerns. On Saturday I chanced across this book: http://www.amazon.com/Johnny-C...id=1327824575&sr=8-1 I don't know what's in it, but it seems to address the very issues raised here.

"You are the wrong one because you are" (hypersensitive, immature, overreacting, trying to start something). Excuse me, I didn't start it, and the offender(s) still take no responsibility for the offenses or even acknowledged them as offenses!

"You are the real bully because" (you are older and should know better, blah, blah, blah.) So now the persecuted becomes the persecutor, and once blame has been turned in the opposite direction, all is lost. What is alarming and frightening in society today is anything said or done of a wrong nature is never the fault of the perpetrator. It is always the fault of the target for "Not taking it right." (And the second law is like unto it: those that dish it out, can't take it!)

What does the bully learn? It worked. Do more of same.

Sorry, not buying. We have to stop these tendencies, including but not limited to: to not even know right from wrong in the first place, to not acknowledge having done wrong or allowed it to be done, and to actually blame the person who bore the brunt of the wrong! This is exactly what is happening now, with poor people being blamed for the Recession, because, well, if so many people weren't so poor, there wouldn't be a recession. Very warped logic we need Bradbury-inspired writers to point out.

It goes a step further when the target is forced into enabling abuse. By being "brave," they pretend it didn't really hurt, and the bully learns it was not that bad. Those being merely insensitive go on, and those really out to do harm step up the abuse. By being "mature" and overlooking it, the initial target opens the way for more aimed at both them and others. I don't know what bullying standard operating procedure is, but it shouldn't include the target being required to "suck it up" to show how big they are and the ever popular "get over it and move on" as if collective amnesia were a desired goal.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: dandelion,

D: Somethings we simply can not change. Those individuals will deal with this their entire lives...negatively. Others, have already been changed and will think twice and speak or compose more carefully in the future. An important lesson learned. Great.

To those who find humor or victory in this, again VERY unfortunate. Maturity takes more time in some than others. Let us hope it does not arrive too late if an important personal situation arises.

guitargirl116~robertp
You have offered some very astute comments, insightful and accurate. Have you brought these points up in your classroom conversations and emphasized the downside of what some classmates may see as "fun, juicy to react to!?" A purposeful individual stands up and speaks clearly. Montag did so. Clarisse did so. (Read Martian Chronicles and find out what Spender did on the Red Planet. It speaks of our world; its cultures and environments being challenged and exploited.)

Someone needs to be a leader! Maybe...you!

quote:

Originally posted by robertp:
To be fair, Phil, some of the kids were openly rude to Dandelion though I believe such posts have since been removed.

I have generally taken a more welcoming tone than dandelion has, but I should stress that there were some offensive messages which I never saw. (dandelion has privately apprised me of these. Had I seen them myself, I would have been less welcoming, and I too would have deleted the messages.)

In the last couple of days, I have detected a slight shift in tone, with more of these young students posting reflectively on how they can see that Bradbury has been influential. The actual opinon itself is not important, but I welcome the shift to a more meditative tone.

quote:

Originally posted by philnic:
I should stress that there were some offensive messages which I never saw. (dandelion has privately apprised me of these. Had I seen them myself, I would have been less welcoming, and I too would have deleted the messages.)

Thanks, Phil, for attesting you wouldn't let such things stay on the board a minute. It's exactly how I felt, but then I'd never dealt with a situation where things got so nasty so fast on such a large scale, and had I realized things would get like they did I would have taken more care. Usually we have one unpleasant poster at a time, if blatant they are deleted and banned on first offense, if not as bad they are issued a warning and then, if necessary, deleted and banned on second or third offense.

Afterwards I realized by deleting the messages so quickly that, although I had perfect recall of what was said, I had no record and no proof of who said what. I have now instated a new rule. If the poster is a member of a school group, and not some wild joker to be immediately banned, a web page snapshot is to be taken of the offending post so all such remarks are correctly attributed and in context. We then save the snapshot to send to the teacher or other school authority. A pain for us that we must go to such extra measures when we are used to just whipping out the big eraser, but it's the only way the guilty parties will be properly identified and held accountable. Otherwise they are just lobbing stones as part of a semi-anonymous mob.

And, yes, I was welcoming at first before being pelted with the barrage of verbal missiles.

quote:

Originally posted by dandelion:
I was going to say more but I see they still have a presence here and as such I don't feel entirely safe yet....