I find it interesting that Bush's degrees at top schools are devalued because of his family fortunes, while the media never mentions that Kerry and Gore both had rich, spoiled upbringings, whose contacts got them into the "big" schools. Another instance where you gotta wonder about equity.

Thormachine,
This was the question I posed, when I guess you were gone, to get us back on topic:

I was looking back at my F451 book. I was especially looking at page 61 in my book (the part where Beatty lectures Montag). First of all, I feel this is one of the most well written pages of literature. Secondly, I feel that Michael Moore completely violates the premise of this part: "If you don't want a man unhappy, don't give him two sides to a question; give him one. Better yet, give him none." Moore is doing exactly what Bradbury makes a point of NOT doing, that is, giving just one side of an arguement. Please respond, I am eager to hear what you guys think of this criticism.

What do you think of this?

Dark, thanks for not bending to criticisms, I don't see why our replies are so bitterly subdued.

-Jesse

quote:

Originally posted by thormachine:
...what do you think can be accomplished by the child of a former president of the United States?

Thormachine,

Er, George W. wasn't the child of a former president of the United States when he went to business school, was he?

As usual, I'm with Mr. Dark on this. I've posted this elsewhere but it bears saying again: you can't be stupid to make it to the office of the President of the United States.

Let's move on to Airjesse's post, shall we?

Best,

Pete

quote:

Originally posted by Mr. Dark:
I find it interesting that Bush's degrees at top schools are devalued because of his family fortunes, while the media never mentions that Kerry and Gore both had rich, spoiled upbringings, whose contacts got them into the "big" schools. Another instance where you gotta wonder about equity.

I dont know what media you are watching...but i have never seen anybody's degrees being devalued becuase of their rich upbringings...another instance where you are making up this liberal bias in the media to suit your opinions....i was talking about my personal experience....i am not a huge kerry supporter either....i really dislike the state of this government in general....i just also happen to see George Bush as a particularly terrible instance of how the US government no longer represents the people it controls and how power and moeny have corrupted this country beyond repair...

And airjesse....i really dont see how there is much room for a response to that comment....its not really a question but more of you taking things from a book...showing how they support your views of how terrible Michael Moore is for giving a side of an arguement and then asking if anyone can criticize that.....yes, i could criticize it for quite sometime but i know your views wont change becuase of the things i say....it has been proven to me that no matter how much i try to communicate that i am not some creepy uber Moore fan and that their are people who can enjoy his point of view on things....the more i get that i am a stupid liberal and that michael moore is brainwashing me with his evil lies.....LIES!!!! psh....

I am tired of arguing with people who do nothing but talk about how wrong i am....but in essence have no real opinions about the world themselves.....and if they do they dont feel like sharing....give me some real opinions and i will be perfectly willing to engage in debate with you....

Thormachine,

Okay, but can we return to Airjesse's question? He's asked you for your opinion. Let's hear it.

Best,

Pete

I didn't pay attention to the name of the poster who was so proud of himself because he got his new "Michael Moore is Fat" T-shirt, but I think those kinds of shirts are very immature and pointless. I was well aware of the fact that Michael Moore has a lot of extra body fat. I am a Bradbury supporter and I do hate MM just about as much as anyone in the world, but these attacks on his weight are immature and pointless. It needs to stop along w/ the attacks on Bradbury's age.

To Thor,
I AM NOT CLOSE MINDED. I am constantly surrounded with people who have different opinions and different situations. My cousin is gay, another has had three abortions, my uncle is an attorney against the death penalty, it is virtually imposible to be close minded in my situation. I work in a research institution and am constantly surrounded by liberals with differing views. Let me be the one to tell you, when you go to my work, you are a pariah for being conservative, not liberal. I AM NOT CLOSED MINDED. I do disagree with most liberal rhetoric but not all of it. I especially disagree with the far left (and this includes MM) when it comes to our war on terror. I AM NOT CLOSED MINDED.

To John, you are right, that shirt is immature, but you have to get it in context... MM wrote a propoganda peice entitled: [u]Big, Fat, Stupid White Men[/u]about conservatives in politics. So, the shirt simply points out that MM himself is a big, fat stupid white man. Hope this clears some water.

Truly,
Jesse

ahh, i see... i still like the shirt i found somewhere that simply says "No More Michael Moore" and has a picture of him crossed out... w/e though.

For those who insist on talking about Bush's wealth, you should know that of the four people(2 presidential and 2 vps), in this campaign, Bush ranks last of the four in family wealth. Stick to issues instead of attacks.

Still waiting to hear from thor... zzzzzz....
-Jesse

I hope you don't mind it if I answer this as well:

To Thor,
I AM NOT CLOSE MINDED.
I am constantly surrounded with people who have different opinions and different situations.
----That says nothing about your mind.

My cousin is gay, another has had three abortions, my uncle is an attorney against the death penalty, it is virtually imposible to be close minded in my situation.
----Why not? By mentioning these things you are at once pointing certain behaviour out. By pointing it out you are implying that there is something the matter with such behaviour. If you think there is something the matter with such behaviour, you are close-minded (a non-close-minded person would simply take those things as normal and everyday things and would not try to point them out, for to that person those things would be similar to eating peanut butter, walking in the park and having a fat brother). So, if you see these things as anything but normal, you are close-minded.

I work in a research institution and am constantly surrounded by liberals with differing views. Let me be the one to tell you, when you go to my work, you are a pariah for being conservative, not liberal. I AM NOT CLOSED MINDED. I do disagree with most liberal rhetoric but not all of it.
----If liberals are open to change and other peopl's interpretations of things, and you disagree with liberals, then you are close-minded by definition.

I especially disagree with the far left (and this includes MM) when it comes to our war on terror.
----1) MM is not far left. Man, you have got to really find out what far left stands for. I suggest you research Zapata, Lenin, and the Russian Revolution. That is far left. By these standards, MM is a hard core rightist. 2) The war on terror is not disagreed only by the left, but by people of all political and economical denominations. It has nothing to do with those things, but rather with logic and the common human empathy.

I AM NOT CLOSED MINDED.
----Man, aren't you touchy on this point...

To John, you are right, that shirt is immature, but you have to get it in context... MM wrote a propoganda peice entitled: [u]Big, Fat, Stupid White Men[/u]about conservatives in politics. So, the shirt simply points out that MM himself is a big, fat stupid white man. Hope this clears some water.
----The shirt is funny, but tasteless. Like Moore.

Cheers, Translator

Ps - thor - no prob. Similar views we have, I guess.

Translator,

I AM NOT CLOSE MINDED.
I am constantly surrounded with people who have different opinions and different situations.
----That says nothing about your mind.
------Of course it does; I have ears, I have a mind, ears send incoming auditory signals from these people and therefore my mind is open. I am not surrounded by conservatives with my viewpoint, that would be closed minded because it is simple reinforcement.

My cousin is gay, another has had three abortions, my uncle is an attorney against the death penalty, it is virtually imposible to be close minded in my situation.
----Why not? By mentioning these things you are at once pointing certain behaviour out. By pointing it out you are implying that there is something the matter with such behaviour. If you think there is something the matter with such behaviour, you are close-minded (a non-close-minded person would simply take those things as normal and everyday things and would not try to point them out, for to that person those things would be similar to eating peanut butter, walking in the park and having a fat brother). So, if you see these things as anything but normal, you are close-minded.
------Did I say they were wrong, NO, I said, or implied that they are values which differ somewhat from my own.

I work in a research institution and am constantly surrounded by liberals with differing views. Let me be the one to tell you, when you go to my work, you are a pariah for being conservative, not liberal. I AM NOT CLOSED MINDED. I do disagree with most liberal rhetoric but not all of it.
----If liberals are open to change and other peopl's interpretations of things, and you disagree with liberals, then you are close-minded by definition.
-------Where did you get that all liberals are open to change? In the words of my self-proclaimed liberal teacher: "Not all liberals are progressives, by any stretch of the imagination."

I especially disagree with the far left (and this includes MM) when it comes to our war on terror.
----1) MM is not far left. Man, you have got to really find out what far left stands for. I suggest you research Zapata, Lenin, and the Russian Revolution. That is far left. By these standards, MM is a hard core rightist. 2) The war on terror is not disagreed only by the left, but by people of all political and economical denominations. It has nothing to do with those things, but rather with logic and the common human empathy.
------1)Far left is relative as the adjective "far" implies. What I consider left is Clinton, Leiberman... What I consider far left is Al Gore and MM. MM considers himself an evolutionary, not a revolutionary like Lenin. (I did study the Russian Revolution)
2) Most people on the far left are doves and did oppose the war on terror as opposed to those more hawkish righties.

I AM NOT CLOSED MINDED.
----Man, aren't you touchy on this point...
------Ya, I am because it is a harsh comment to call someone out for being close-minded

To John, you are right, that shirt is immature, but you have to get it in context... MM wrote a propoganda peice entitled: [u]Big, Fat, Stupid White Men[/u]about conservatives in politics. So, the shirt simply points out that MM himself is a big, fat stupid white man. Hope this clears some water.
----The shirt is funny, but tasteless. Like Moore.
------Already commented

cheers, touche,

Jesse

Translator,
I AM NOT CLOSE MINDED.
I am constantly surrounded with people who have different opinions and different situations.
----That says nothing about your mind.
------Of course it does; I have ears, I have a mind, ears send incoming auditory signals from these people and therefore my mind is open. I am not surrounded by conservatives with my viewpoint, that would be closed minded because it is simple reinforcement.
----------On the contrary, it doesn't. I could be surrounded by donkeys, but it doesn't mean that I will begin to understand what they mean. One does not follow from the other.

My cousin is gay, another has had three abortions, my uncle is an attorney against the death penalty, it is virtually imposible to be close minded in my situation.
----Why not? By mentioning these things you are at once pointing certain behaviour out. By pointing it out you are implying that there is something the matter with such behaviour. If you think there is something the matter with such behaviour, you are close-minded (a non-close-minded person would simply take those things as normal and everyday things and would not try to point them out, for to that person those things would be similar to eating peanut butter, walking in the park and having a fat brother). So, if you see these things as anything but normal, you are close-minded.
------Did I say they were wrong, NO, I said, or implied that they are values which differ somewhat from my own.
-----------Right - my bad. I assumed you assigned a negative connotation to them. I guess you are absolutley fine with such behaviour, then.

I work in a research institution and am constantly surrounded by liberals with differing views. Let me be the one to tell you, when you go to my work, you are a pariah for being conservative, not liberal. I AM NOT CLOSED MINDED. I do disagree with most liberal rhetoric but not all of it.
----If liberals are open to change and other peopl's interpretations of things, and you disagree with liberals, then you are close-minded by definition.
-------Where did you get that all liberals are open to change? In the words of my self-proclaimed liberal teacher: "Not all liberals are progressives, by any stretch of the imagination."
--------------Self-proclaimed is the right phrase. Obviously your teacher doesn't know what liberal means - I suggest he/she goes back to the dictionary to find out.


I especially disagree with the far left (and this includes MM) when it comes to our war on terror.
----1) MM is not far left. Man, you have got to really find out what far left stands for. I suggest you research Zapata, Lenin, and the Russian Revolution. That is far left. By these standards, MM is a hard core rightist. 2) The war on terror is not disagreed only by the left, but by people of all political and economical denominations. It has nothing to do with those things, but rather with logic and the common human empathy.
------1)Far left is relative as the adjective "far" implies. What I consider left is Clinton, Leiberman... What I consider far left is Al Gore and MM. MM considers himself an evolutionary, not a revolutionary like Lenin. (I did study the Russian Revolution)
--------------Right, but it just shows how your scale is differeing from the world norm. The world shouldn't change - it is the world - but you should update your scale or others might think you close-minded. (congrats on Lenin; but if you knew about him, why did you call MM a far leftie?).

2) Most people on the far left are doves and did oppose the war on terror as opposed to those more hawkish righties.
--- I still maintain that those who opposed that war on terror, in the Bush form of it, did it out of logic and compassion for innocent lives, not because they are lefties. A seperate question is, what political colour are such people flying, for the most part? To which the answer is overwhelmingly left. Hence you are right, but I am more right than you - being a leftie is not a prerequisite for the opposotion; being logical and compassionate is.

I AM NOT CLOSED MINDED.
----Man, aren't you touchy on this point...
------Ya, I am because it is a harsh comment to call someone out for being close-minded
-----------I concur, but, also, you shouldn't deny it in Caps - unless you want to provoke such responses as I gave you...


To John, you are right, that shirt is immature, but you have to get it in context... MM wrote a propoganda peice entitled: [u]Big, Fat, Stupid White Men[/u]about conservatives in politics. So, the shirt simply points out that MM himself is a big, fat stupid white man. Hope this clears some water.
----The shirt is funny, but tasteless. Like Moore.
------Already commented
-----------agreed.

cheers,
translator

(ps - a fencer?)


[This message has been edited by Translator (edited 07-28-2004).]

Translator, good conversation, good rebuttals, I guess we will agree to disgree. I do see some of your points and my views have changed because I have a dynamic opinion, not a close minded one.
:-)
-Jesse
ps, not a fencer...?

[This message has been edited by airjesse123 (edited 07-28-2004).]

oh man....i missed out.....
Yeah....just so you guys know i dont sit at my computer desperately waiting for someone to answer my posts....if I dont answer you right away it is because I am doing things in reality.....something I find very useful in order to be able to type on this computer and use the internet...

but anyway.....airjesse seems to have proven my point that a lot of people on both sides of this arguement need to get their facts straight before they start blasting holes in the wall....

the book that was being talked about before was actaully called Stupid White Men....no big....and no fat....you actually put Rush Limbaugh is a Big, Fat Idiot by Al Franken and Moore's book together.....once again i bring up the fact that a lot of people seeming to bash Moore and other "liberals" seem to be doing so because they are overweight or because they have opposing views about how the most powerful country in the world should deal with militaristic preemption.

I also already answered airjesse's criticism in that i dont feel that his criticism can really be answered or wants to be answered because it is so sure of its self. Rather i would give the point that Moore is simply doing what is natural and artistic by incorporating a historically known title into his own to make his point. I also believe that Moore's postion on things are anything but far left.....you want to see far left? give me a few thousand dollars and i will make a movie about how the US should be brought down brick by brick and made up again in a way that will prevent the corruption of power as much as possible while scrapping the "represenative" democracy that the US loves to protect but in fact tends to sidestep whenever possible....now THAT is far left....Moore simply values human life....whether you think that the facts he uses in the movie are fake (if you even watched it....you may have just gone to some site called www.michaelmooreisgay.com and found some "facts" that tell all about how terrible a liar Moore is as well as a section about how Harry Potter is trying to turn children into Wiccan poster children and Gay people are trying to take over the world with their alternative life style.....) or whether you believe them for what they are....(laden with opinion)....you should not simply hate him because his labels are different then yours.....look past liberals and conservatives and look at the issues....not all conservatives are proud of the Bush administration....hell, Paul O'Neil a very prestigious republican who was Bush's secretary of Treasury hates him! Not because of some label that was put on him by someone else....but rather because Bush is not about serving the people of this country....he is not even about sheer pragmatism....Bush and his adminstration are about a new era of global business politics that will result in the slow strangle of the free world....but dont take my word for it.....read the news.....