If ever there was one issue that divides Western society into different camps, it's this one: 'what I believe'.

Respect for and the dignity of another unifies. Politics and religion divides, unless you're turned the same way.

And it will always be that way until the end of time.

Very true, Nard, very true indeed.
To clarify, Truth?, yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. It sounds like you may be opposed to this idea, and that is your right. But I think, as jfaronson said, this idea, if it can be accepted, will lead to more tolerance and understanding of those with different beliefs. It seems some kind of thought similar to this may be key in your mission to re-unify people with God. Realize that while you and I are Christians (and obviously for a good reason) many others worship God, yes the same God, in their own way. No doubt you and I feel that our beliefs are more correct than others or we would not have chosen to be Christian, but neither you nor I can say with too much seriousness that we have the absolute answer. Do you think any human being truly capable of understanding that vast mysteriousness, love, joy, and utter beauty that is our Creator? Again, peace and good luck to you.

Yestermorrow:

I didn't choose to be a Christian.

I was after the meaning of something I experienced when very young. It was an event in my young life that disrupted me forever....and it included Ray Bradbury. Like I stated before in some far away post perhaps lost amidst the pile, I never even read a Ray Bradbury story. But in the long, winding process of geting to know Bradbury, I came crashing into a meeting with Christ Himself.

Read the introductory paragraph in my website, under the section "Bradbury." It about explains it all in a nutshell....

As to 'absolute answer' why of course I do. And you better hurry up and find it.

An Aside Note:
( 'Life'... is a wind that blows in the window one morning and is gone before the birds are even up.
Poof!
The last 25 years of my life went faster and seems no longer ago than an evening remembered two weekends ago. You talk to old people and they say life...just went by too fast. And being young was just....like yesterday.
So what is time, then...if recollection defies the clock and calendar?
St. Augustine was enamored with the meaning of time. He said he once in a while he knew what time was, but when he took pen to paper to write about it, he forgot. )

Okay, I understand now. And yes, I agree that understanding others views is one key to unity. I must say however, I am... confused about your belief. I find it hard to grasp the concept that we all really worship one god if Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to Father but through me." (John 14:6) If that were not true, Jesus was a liar. Wouldn't that mean that the entire foundation of our faith would be false? Why, even, would have had need for Jesus? If we all worshipped the same god, what was wrong with the Greco-Roman gods? I see where that belief might come from (tell me if I'm off the mark). I might suppose that it comes from seeing a basic thread of similarity throughout the various religions, and that is goodness, truth, etc. However, I must contest, for in Satanism, people are encouraged to indulge in what we would consider sins. Also, quoting the fourth Satanic rule of the earth, "If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy." That doesn't really seem to me to be following the same lines as all the rest of the religions. If we all worship the same god, God directly contradicts himself, even though he claims to be infallible. I cannot understand it. In the few short years I have been around, I've found I could understand a great deal of abstract concepts, but this one seems to escape my grasp. Forgive me if I seem rude, I am merely trying to understand.

And yes, you are correct, no one of us can ever truly know with absolute certainty that what we believe is correct, but we can be pretty dang sure! I beleive that God exists. I also believe that God is perfect. Therefore, what follows is that His Word is truth, the only truth I can really rely on. That's why I don't understand. I see something that doesn't quite fit into my misinterpretation of the Bible, and I have to question it. That's really all I seek to do. Ask questions to better understand the people outside of my self-wall. Ask questions to cause others to question more. Eventually, if enough people begin to question what they believe, one final truth will arise. I can't say for certain that it is my belief. I can't say for certain that it is any belief which is prevalent on earth today. But I can say that whatever that truth is will be the absolute truth, or as very near as we can get to it.

The key to unity is not perfect synchronization. The key to unity is Christ.

I do not wish peace on the people, for it has developed an unfortunate connotation. Have peace within, surely. But now is the time, more than ever, to fight to find the truth, whatever that may be.

@

[dang, I wrote too much again]

[This message has been edited by Truth? (edited 01-21-2004).]

Well said, people, and when I'm not so tired, I'll make an effort to respond. You make me older with each insightful post.

Well, jfaronson, what I sort of meant was that if the message from "Truth" moved you to share that, maybe his goal was working, about God bringing people together.

"Truth," did you ever watch "Touched by an Angel"?

Truth?

If you directed your comment to me... I never intended to say that all roads lead to heaven, so to speak.

As a Christian, there is only 'one' way. But you see, that takes volumes sometimes to explain. Salvation mystifies angels in heaven, where in Peter's Epistle, it describes their amazement of our being 'saved', since they never saw anything like it before.

And as to being unable to know for certain....why, of course you can know for certain.

If the Holy Spirit breathes on you...
YOU KNOW!
It's ultra reality!

Nothing matches up to this experience, this experience of suddenly 'understanding.' Often it is just brief. But by constantly embracing 'the cross', that is to say, letting go of our knee-jerk reactions to self (very painful)...
we develop in our knowledge of 'Him'!

There are posts of CS Lewis floating around here...and I have yet to get to the very point where CS Lewis, tho a gifted scholar and writer, embraced Christ as his Saviour. Bradbury, even now, embraces Christ as a mystical, perhaps even a metaphorical figure as far as I can tell. I thought Ray wrote handsomely of Christ in his short story, 'Death and the Maiden'. He was portrayed as Willie Winchester. I am sure when Ray wrote that he had no idea that he was describing a small glitter of the love of Christ.
When, in life, do you suddenly wake up and say... "Good Heavens! I have been writing of the one that saved me and loved me from before the beginning of creation...and didn't know it...until now!!"

I believe more in the way of Nard in how God reaches the individual. Sure some can tilt you but only God can make you fall. I only say to Truth that living your life as an example of the results of your beliefs can tilt other people. I'm not big on movements and I would not belong to yours. I work on a smaller level.

First, Nard, let me say that I am myself without doubt that C. S. Lewis knew Christ as his savior. As I'm sure you know, he was a devout Christian and one of the great apologists of our time. Though I have only read passages of his many books concerning his Christian beliefs and ideas, I am currently reading his Space Trilogy, as it may be called. There can be no doubt in my mind from reading these books that he is a Christian.
Now, Truth?:
You assume, I think, that when I say most other religions or spiritual groups worship, in essence, the same God, that I am therefore saying any of those religions is just as good or correct as any other. This is not the case. I say instead that most (not all, i.e. Satanism) forms of spirituality SEEK God--the one and only--and in that spirituality find SOME facet(s) of the whole truth. Therefore, they are good, worthy of respect and acceptance, yet incomplete without Christ. That is why I am a Christian. Yes, Nard, I suppose we don't choose it, but rather it chooses us and we merely open ourselves to it.
As for the absolute answer, Nard, I have found it, as have you it would seem, but I meant the term in a different light than you suggest. What I originally meant with this phrase was the whole of all knowledge, not just that Christ is Lord and Savior, which is what I think you referred to. Basically, what I meant was that if all His knowledge and wisdom were a mountain, our own knowledge would be but a speck of dust in comparison. Part of the wisdom of humans is accepting this inarguable truth. But that is no longer here nor there, just a clarification of meaning.

Yestermorrow, I understand. Yes, I see your point now. I suppose the way it was phrased threw me off. Everyone seeks God, not everyone finds Him. Makes sense. I agree that C.S. Lewis was one of the greatest Christian authors I have ever read. (Loved Perelandra) I sometimes use metaphors from his books in my own writing.

Ought Not, "my" movement is not really large scale. It is, as you say, smaller. That's really where it is. Teach one person for one year, then that person teaches someone else for a year while you teach another still. That ends up multiplying quickly.

Nard, yes, when you recieve the Holy Spirit you KNOW. Wow, what an experience. BUt what I was saying was along the lines of Yestermorrow, that is, we can never really understand God. I remember a book I read in elementary school called _The Boy Who Reversed Himself_. It dealt with the fourth dimension etc. (already I was interested in seeing beyond the six walls ) But anyway, at one point, the main character was explaining to someone that if a two-dimensional creature were to look at a cube, it would see a line, being one edge of the cube. It could end up seeing a square, that being one face of the cube. But it could never see the cube for what it truly is, that cube would be beyond it's realm of understanding. I see God as being in a similar relationship to us. We can sort of understand maybe one face of Him, but we'll never reach His level. I'm not saying that He's impersonal, on the contrary, I'm just saying we can't be *on His level.

dandelion, my message can't move anyone, only God can. But I know what you're saying. Yes, I've watched it one or two times, didn't like it too much. Put too much emphasis on the angels and portrayed God as some nebulous, impersonal love, in my opinion.

This is a wonderful conversation. I never imagined it would develop so. Reminds me of discussions I might have with my family, but on a much deeper level. God's doing something, I mean is it just me, or have we all pretty much found that there is a cord of understanding between each person? See? Unity is possible through Christ.

@

[oh, if you ever wonder if Lewis was a Christian or not, read The Screwtape Letters. Easy read, deep theological insights]

[This message has been edited by Truth? (edited 01-21-2004).]

So, has what makes Ray Bradbury tick been adequately discussed?

Obviously, this board has been at it for some time now.

Well, to know if C.S. Lewis was a Christian, it would be even more straighforward to just read his "Mere Christianity".

What makes Ray Bradbury tick is, in part, his upbringing, his reading, his thoughtfullness about life, his sense of spirituality, and his approach to life. There is not one magic key that makes Bradbury tick. Interestingly, he writes with a religious/spiritual sensitivity that is both vague and powerful--a combination that is rarely successful.

Ray's magic is that he continually asks, as he himself has said many times, "What if", what would happen if this situation were presented to a character, what would that character do? Then, he lets the character tell Ray, the author, what he would do, and the story writes itself. Sounds corny, but that is what the Man says he has been doing all these years. I believe him. And, never give up on your love, once you find it, and embrace it all your life. What a way to live. It is as though he were a dog that simply does what dogs do, and never thinks about what dogs SHOULD do. That is real freedom.

quote:

Originally posted by Truth?:
I find it hard to grasp the concept that we all really worship one god if Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to Father but through me." (John 14:6) If that were not true, Jesus was a liar. Wouldn't that mean that the entire foundation of our faith would be false? Why, even, would have had need for Jesus? If we all worshipped the same god, what was wrong with the Greco-Roman gods? I see where that belief might come from (tell me if I'm off the mark). I might suppose that it comes from seeing a basic thread of similarity throughout the various religions, and that is goodness, truth, etc. However, I must contest, for in Satanism, people are encouraged to indulge in what we would consider sins. Also, quoting the fourth Satanic rule of the earth, "If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy." That doesn't really seem to me to be following the same lines as all the rest of the religions. If we all worship the same god, God directly contradicts himself, even though he claims to be infallible. I cannot understand it. [This message has been edited by Truth? (edited 01-21-2004).]

Just because Jesus said "I am the way...the truth" doesn't mean that one can't find the way and the truth without using his name. If you find Jesus and call it something else, what's the problem? I think Nard's point was that if other religions have a figure that is the same as Jesus in philosophy/belief, aren't you seeking the same thing? Isn't it the same end goal? By saying it must be the man it sounds like you are putting too much worth on a body and not a spirit.

As for other religions, like Satanism (which is most commonly just an atheist fad) If the scripture of another religion is obviously evil and/or corrupt, toss it out! But if there's anything just and good, well that's just great and it should be preserved.

The fact that you feel you will be deserted, the fact that you feel people will desert you, could be a sign that you have already fallen. Do not take this as an insult, but I have seen many grey ones go down this path. I know because I've been there and felt that alone before. I assure you, it is an illusion.

I might be willing to help you in the fight as long as I'm positive it's the fight that my group and I have been working on. You can email me at ordinis@gmail.com, please do so if you want my help, even better if you have any messenger programs so that we can talk live.

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O, first-enthroned of the Apostles,
Teachers of the Universe,
Entreat The Master of all
That He may grant peace to the world
And great mercy to our souls!

Troparion for Saints Peter and Paul (Tone 4)
(today is June 29th on the old calendar)

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