In Australia they have compulsary voting. Each citizen is by law required to vote and fined $20 Aussie($14 U.S.) for failure to vote. As a result they have a 95% voter turnout.

Here's a news story about it-
http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20041009001709990007&_mpc=news%2e6&cid=842

Hrousseau,

Ask and ye shall receive: http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/news/WABC_100304_middleschoolteacher.html.

And that's just the first hit I got from googling "teacher bush picture." (Surprisingly few porno links from that combination, too.) Not too much heavy lifting on my part to find it and, believe me when I say, I don't like doing too much heavy lifting.

I'm with Mr. Dark about talk radio. I listen to Rush and others and realize fully they are not sources of news. (Though some have guests whose statements could be relied upon as primary sources of information.) Yes, these shows are for entertainment. No, they do not purport to be news sources. I'm not familiar with the Russian story you quote and, frankly, I'm not at all interested in checking it out. I hold no opinion on Gorbachev or the talk show host you refer to. I'll take your word for it that your version of events are correct but I'd rely on neither you nor the talk show host's version before forming an opinion either way. Fair enough?


Best,

Pete

pterran: This is the first I had heard of this story. I couldn't get the post you cited to work, but I did a google search, also and got this (So it appears NOT to be a radio talk show fabrication, although it is bizarre enough that it sounds like one!):

New York Post Online
http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/29545.htm

UNDER PREZ-SURE
By DAVID ANDREATTA Education Reporter
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

October 2, 2004 -- A New Jersey public-school teacher claims she was bushwhacked by her principal yesterday when he ordered her to "get out" of the building after she refused to remove a photo of President Bush and the first lady from her classroom.
The White House-issued photo of the Bushes was pinned to a bulletin board that held portraits of George Washington, Benjamin Franklin and a copy of the Constitution.

"I wouldn't touch politics in my classroom with a 10-foot pole, but [the principal] felt I was making a political statement," said Shiba Pillai-Diaz, 33, a seventh- and eighth-grade English teacher at Crossroads South Elementary School in Monmouth Junction.

"It was meant to be a picture of the current president, nothing partisan about it," said Pillai-Diaz, a Republican mother of one who volunteered at the party's convention in Madison Square Garden.

The controversy erupted Thursday night when a handful of parents objected to the photo during a back-to-school parent-teacher conference. Pillai-Diaz said three parents demanded the photo be removed � or complemented with a picture of Sen. John Kerry.

Pillai-Diaz said she notified the assistant principal, Mark Daniels, of the brouhaha during a break in the conference and that Daniels defended her right to post the photo.

But yesterday, Pillai-Diaz said Daniels changed his tune and demanded she remove it before her first class.



"He told me that if I care about my employment at the school, I would take down the picture," she said.

When she refused, the matter was taken up by the principal, Jim Warfel, who Pillai-Diaz said accused her of "causing disruption and hatred" with her "inflammatory politics" and told her to "get out" of the building.

Pillai-Diaz said she stormed out of the building and was told by Warfel to hand over her keys.

When she returned for her belongings � after The Post placed calls to school officials � Pillai-Diaz said she was greeted by the superintendent, Gary McCartney.

Pillai-Diaz said McCartney warned her against telling her story to the press, saying "it will be beyond [his] ability to help" her if she did. She told The Post she was not sure if she would return to school Monday.

"Basically, I'm being told to choose [between] my job and my principles," she said.

In a brief interview, Warfel described the issue as "a personnel matter at the school" and said, "No one at this school was fired today."

A spokeswoman for the South Brunswick Board of Education declined to comment, saying she did not know the details of the dispute.

Well, I'm chastized. I eat crow. But not for doubting the story. I eat it for using the term 'credulous listeners'. It was unnecessary. It was a poisoned harpoon, and should never have been used. Character flaw on my part.

Regarding the NJ teacher story: I was right in that it was not a 'firing' but a 'brouhaha'. I was wrong in that it was not a 'total fabrication'. An administrator let fly some heated words he could not back up. The teachers' union and probable lawsuits made him cool down. It was a 'squabble', brought on by election-year passions of several parents. Should never have happened. Ms. P-D should not have had to suffer through it.

Regarding proper subject matter for site: the 'teacher' anecdote was offered by Pabillsman in a context of political discussion in which three-quarters of the preceeding posts were so oriented. It is hard to keep real-world concerns from seeping in. Seems to be a matter for consenting adults. I have plenty of ideas on Bradbury's writing --- well, a few, anyway --- and I expect to get around to them, but seeing that anecdote tripped my wire --- it didn't sound right.

Walking the line between abject surrender and stiff-necked self-justification
I remain your truly
h.rousseau

>Incidentally, I call myself a 'left-wing conservative'. Figure that one out.

Now I stand corrected. I have become so leery of political #$%^&&# on this site, that I had forgotten this story had a relevant context. Sorry about that.


[This message has been edited by Mr. Dark (edited 10-10-2004).]

h. rousseau: Whether or not the principal backed off the firing is not the point. She was told to turn in her keys and leave--most would consider that a firing!!!!! Also, this subject is within the bounds of Bradbury because the question was asked about current or future societies in reference to 451, so the subject is legitimate. I hope the teacher gets her job back, but the fact of the matter is that it should never have happened and we need to change things in this country and eliminate paranoia and political correctness.

pabillsman,

How can we get rid of paranoia in our country? Ever since Sept. 11, Americans (although they don't want to admit) have been afraid of terrorists coming and striking the heart of the very thing this country is held by...our freedom. It's in human nature; we are theatened, we respond, we watch over our backs to make sure that nothing else happens again.

Personally, even though I see your point, I don't think Americans will ever be rid of paranoia and suspicions. But what hope do you see for the future of the American people? Will we overcome our fears and go on with life? Or will we see WWIII a lot sooner than we think because of people's hatred and fear?

And by the way...I'm glad I can talk to a TEACHER who has his own personal ideas and is willing to share them. I wish that I could talk to MY English teacher like we're talking now.

And, above all, I'm glad sacryneighbor's gone...I think.

Rousseau,
would you be able to elaborate a bit more on your political convictions? What exactly is a left-leaning conservative? (I suspect I know the answer, but i'd like to make sure).
Cheers, Translator
PS - sorry for not replying in the previous thread; been berry berry busy lately.

soccer,

In his 1931 novel LAST AND FIRST MEN Olaf Stapledon laid this on the world:

"But the most lasting agony of this war was suffered, not by the defeated, but by the victors. For when their passion had cooled the Americans could not easily disguise from themselves that they had committed murder. They were not at heart a brutal folk, but rather kindly. They liked to think of the world as a place of innocent pleasure-seeking, and of themselves as the main purveyors of delight. Yet they had been somehow drawn into this fantastic crime; and henceforth an all pervading sense of collective guilt warped the American mind. They had ever been vain, glorious, and intolerant; but now these qualities in them became extravagant even to insanity. Both as individuals and collectively, they became increasingly frightened of criticism, increasingly prone to blame and hate, increasingly self-righteous, increasingly hostile to the critical intelligence, increasingly superstitious."

"Thus was this once noble people singled out by the gods to be cursed, and the minister of curses."

IS THAT HEAVY, OR WHAT!?!

And he wrote that like 15 years before Enola Gay's fateful mission.

Let's call it "Post A-Bomb Guilt Complex".

[This message has been edited by grasstains (edited 10-12-2004).]

Replies:

To Mr. Dark:
Ah, a gentleman and a scholar. I aspire to both; sometimes achieve one or the other. Still gonna challenge you on capitalism; your moderate position is only partly correct. Beware! More to come.

To Pabillsman:
It ain't over till the fat lady sings, but I suspect that the glare of publicity, plus those practical considerations I mentioned, have forced the principal to back off, and for this reason firing is now out of the question. There will be some lingering bad feelings, though; and it's likely that the district won't look favorably on Warfel's behavior. An impasse, with continued employment, and all parties somewhat damaged.

Let me ramble on a bit, apropo to the subject; if it's not entertaining, scroll on down quickly.

In my two decades --- more --- in the building trades, I could hire and fire at will. The field was wide open, the Wild West, totally unregulated. In my present position as bar owner, I find that firing even a bartender or waitress is difficult. A state agency concerns itself with these fields of employment. If we fire someone without tons of documentation, we can end up paying lots of money. My partner did this; a female bartender was berating and dunning customers if she was unsatisfied with her tip. People reported it to us. Finally we saw it, one night, when she exclaimed to an astonished table of drinkers, "Is THIS all I'm getting?" She had to go. She appealed it to the state commission; and since my partner thought that all that was required was a simple verbal explanation --- not the case --- we had to pay $2300.

Teachers --- you are one --- sign a contract with the district. The contract has been negotiated by the Teachers' Union. The Union is very concerned with protecting its members' jobs, but it does include terms for valid dismissal. Perhaps you could tell me what these terms are in your state or your district. I know that around here, as I said, teachers do not lose their jobs unless they are convicted of the horrendous. I'd be interested to know what your contract says.

To Translator:
What's a left-wing conservative? Well, let's see if we can strip it down to as few words as possible.
I have a theistic conception of the universe, part Christian, part Brahmanistic Hindu, part Buddhist. Par for the course for my generation. God is what is. Yahweh: "I Am Who Am." Being and nothingness. Your god can be personal or impersonal, said P. Yogananda, and both are correct, but if he's impersonal, you'll suffer more. Scriptures, when not strictly historical, are pious legends. Baruch Spinoza first took the being/nothingness position in the West, though not in those words. So as not to give the impression of more learning than I actually have, I've read only extracts.

Regarding human life in the here-and-now, one major purpose is to take all that was good in the past and pass it on. I agree with Edmund Burke about 'the natural conservatism of mankind.' The seed well planted should not be ripped out.

Accordingly, I fear capitalism's incessant tearing-out and rebuilding of the world. In its quest for riches it brought fire and the sword (in its early stages) and a smarmy deceptive shell game (now). Fear & loathe ideology-driven class liquidations --- read R. Conquest's 'Harvest of Sorrow' --- though that era seems to have passed.

Since Pol Pot and his like are no longer a danger, we face capitalism bestride the world like a colossus.

What to do?
Cultivate your gardens, said Voltaire.
Okay, but that's not enough.

Comprende?

To grasstains:
By an odd coincidence, I had just come from a used-book site where I had ordered Stapledon's book, and switched to this site where I saw your post. Synchronicity . . .

Must get to bed now
h.rousseau

[This message has been edited by h.rousseau (edited 10-12-2004).]

grasstains,

THAT is heavy. To think Stapledon had the insight to see humanity's true self. On the inside, humans are one thing. But on the outside...it's completely different. It's not just Americans, although we tend to express that difference more radically than others.

Do you think this will get us humans in trouble? Or do you think we can get over these differences?

Soccer: I don't mean the kind of paranoia that fears terrorism, I mean the kind that began somewhere in the eighties. It is the paranoia that states since one child was hit in the chest by a ball and died in Little League, all kids should were body armor. It is the kind that states a company is responsible for someone putting hot coffee in their crotch. It is the kind that demands hockey venues raise their plexi-glass because of a freak death due to a flying puck. It is the kind that bans smoking in OUTDOOR stadiums. It is the paranoia that caused small amusement parks to close because they could not keep up with the insurance due to sue-happy lawyers like John Edwards. It is the paranoia that says a man cannot say, "You look lovely today'" to a female without risking a sexual harrassment suit. It is the kind that states that a faculty member of a college cannot ask a fellow faculty member out on a date more than once or once again it is sexual harrassment. It is the kind that bans classic books like "Huckleberry Finn" because it uses the "N" word in context of the times, yet embraces the hatred and racism of rap music at a school dance. It is the kind that changes the term "Founding Fathers" to "Framers" so females won't feel left out.

If you are over thirty, you remember a more relaxed world that had more freedoms, and spoke more of the factual truth.

h.r.-

Be prepared to be blown away by LAST AND FIRST MEN. The range of ideas, coming at you in rapid fire, will really force any open-minded individual to pause at times in order to soak it all in. Stapledon provided the seeds for many novels and short stories to come and his books are still being mined for inspiration by authors even today. I had some almost embarrassing ideas jump into my mind while reading LAST AND FIRST MEN. I still need to read STAR MAKER and ODD JOHN.

soccer,

I don't think we, as a species, can ever get past our differences. One conflict leads to another, with no war to end all wars. As a kid I used to bear witness to ant wars in a field beside my house. The black ants always seemed to have the upper hand on the red ants, and it was always the black ants invading the red. It was continuous, weekly perhaps, and by the time I moved away(at 17) the red ants were gone. Nobody denies the intelligence of dolphins. They have sex for pleasure, they have nannies, they commit suicide, and a few years ago were observed for the first time committing murder, as they ruthlessly mobbed a pod of their "mini-me's"(porpoises). The black sheep and albino chimpanzee are neglected and denied by their own mothers. This discrimination appears to be inherent among all the creatures of this planet.

But...if there is one creature on this planet who can transcend this discrimination, let it be man. And let's continue striving to that end.

For h.r. and soccer(and anyone else interested):

A year or two ago we had the world agriculture conference or convention or whatever here in Sacramento, Ca. and protesters were all over the streets. They held signs protesting genetically altered foods and seeds. In an attempt to understand their concerns I did some research.

Apparently, the world's seed supply is virtually monopolized by just a few HUGE companies(Monsanto, Con-Agra, etc.) and their scientists or biologists have created "capatalist-terrorist" hybrid vegetable seeds. In Mexico the wind carries the seeds or the bees carry the pollen from the fields of these large corporations and infect neighboring farmer's fields. The DNA of the hybrid takes over the field and the corps send sample takers into these farmer's fields to see if these farmers are "using" their product. The farmers are then billed for it and/or sued.

Now the plant life of the planet discriminates.

[This message has been edited by grasstains (edited 10-12-2004).]

This is pretty interesting. Is the research based on web-work, or does this come from reputable presses? What is the peer review and verification on this?