At the risk of this becoming political again, (which it is), consider the idea in "451" that some people never knew that firemen once put out fires. It even paints Ben Franklin as the first fireman. (I know BF pioneered the Philadelphia firefighters, but the people in the novel believed he was the first bookburner). Anyway, the point is that liberalism is in the very business of this "revisionist history." Textbooks all over the country are removing references to George Washington, they are calling the Founding Fathers the "Framers" so no females will be insulted, snowmen are being changed to snowpersons, and America is being painted as the evil group during WWII because of the use of nuclear weapons. I guess we can forget about Pearl Harbor.

All of this is supported by liberals!!!

Great foresight by RAY!
It is also the theme to a greater degree of "1984."

Kerry did exactly the same thing last night. He called the "Sons of Liberty" the "Sons and Daughters of Liberty." When I went to school, they used the real name.

Al Sharpton in his speech is still calling for reparations for slavery. I should not have to pay reparations to black families because their ancestors 150 years ago were slaves.

Good ol' Mikey Moore tried to push emotional buttons on O'Reilly's show by suggesting that Bush sends children to war. Excuse me Mike, but these are VOLUNTEER men and women. They have not been drafted!!

This is liberalism in the nutshell. Is this what you want for America?

Hey - You're right! Let's all foget the roles women played in history - who cares about that, eh? And whoever heard of paying for their sins - what a prepostreous idea! I mean - damn - are germans to pay for the war damages they wrecked on the world? Are Canadians to pay for the slaughtr of the natives? Next thing you know, they'll want thieves to pay back what they stole! Over my dead conservative body!

Cheers, Translator

Another political debate. Bradbury has made it very clear he is against the weakening of language and truth to promote "political correctness." If the board is looking at Bradbury's view, he's pretty clear on this. If we want to debate this forever, we can just haggle personal opinions.

Translator, once again, your position is flawed and makes no sense. No one wants to forget the female contributions. Betsy Ross, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Lucretia Mott, Harriet Tubman, etc. were all great contributors. But they were not part of the "Sons of Liberty" nor were they one of the "Founding Fathers." The political correctness in this country is ridiculous! Lets just deal with the truth!

Secondly, I had NOTHING to do with the issue of slavery,nor did my ancestors, so why should I pay the black families of today for the sins of former Americans? I am fourth generation Eastern European descent. I guess I should pay JUST BECAUSE I AM WHITE! This is today's version of racism in this country.

Your argument is not only ultra liberal--it is simple unfounded.

Freedom: It doesn't include someone taking your money and deciding it belongs to someone else.

[This message has been edited by pabillsman (edited 07-31-2004).]

Pabillsman,

The two afterwords now included with F-451 further explores what you're talking about, though I think Bradbury manages to be a little more even-handed about it.

Best,

Pete

quote:

Originally posted by Translator:
Hey - You're right! Let's all foget the roles women played in history - who cares about that, eh? And whoever heard of paying for their sins - what a prepostreous idea! I mean - damn - are germans to pay for the war damages they wrecked on the world? Are Canadians to pay for the slaughtr of the natives? Next thing you know, they'll want thieves to pay back what they stole! Over my dead conservative body!

Cheers, Translator

If they wanted people to pay for THEIR sins then they would have done it about 40 years ago. Why should the generations of today have to pay reparations for the other generations of today when the white decendants of slave owners had nothing to do w/ the black decendants of slaves. It doesn't make any sense. Neither of the two parties were in any way a part of the slavery.

Thanks,Pete! I'll check them out. My version is a bit older!

Pabillsman,
AMEN brother!

Ok Pabillisman,
what exacty are you talking about here when you say that restitutions are made to pay black families? The goverment gives them some money, perhaps? The only reason why the goverment has money, in the first place, is because it was made on the backs of dying black planation workers imported from Africa. If their descendants are not to be paid for the slavery their fathers and mothers did, don't you then think it's kind of unfair? (I want you to show me how and where black people are getting paid, by the way. I'm curious). By your resoning, the families of German jews should get nothing from the German goverment - hey, it wasn't the 30 year old german workers living right now who stole and killed the Jews, was it? So why should they pay? Who would you side with here, pabillisman?
Of course the females weren't the sons of liberty - they were the daughters of liberty. If you are going to cling to your chauvinistic belief that it was only the men who liberated your nation, and hence they only should be named (as per "sons of liberty"), then yes, I am wrong. I think, however, that the phrase should be changed to sons and daughters of liberty, for that was what really happened. I'll give you an analogous position: The Saudi Arabian national anthem calls for the murder of all non-muslim heathens, for they are abominations, and Allah doesn't like them because they are not Muslim. That obvious racist hymn would be fine with you, I take it, for if it was sung for generations, and if the people are not Muslims, then hell, they should be killed (though they (the current-day muslims) acknowledge that some non-muslims are ok people). Likewise, Because the phrase "sons of Liberty" was said for generations, and women are not men, then that phrase should be continued forever (though you acknowledge that the liberation was not only accomplished by men). I made up the part about Saudi Arabia, by the way. Your case, I think, shows that you are trapped in some serious male-dominated historical outlook, and you refuse to acknowledge the women, though you acknowlege that they have been a part of it.
Third, why do you think that whatever you work for should be yours (better yet, why do you think that your reward merited the work?). Don't you think that some people work 5 times as hard as you do, and get 1/100 of what you get? Why shouldn't money be taken from you in that situation? Is it fair that you should wallow in riches while others are dying from hunger? Why shouldn't your money be taken away if you don't volutairly give it up in the name of peace and brotherhood?

Cheers, Translator

[This message has been edited by Translator (edited 08-03-2004).]

Where do I begin? I find it hard to believe that you, Translator, even believe your own silliness. First of all, I never said that blacks ARE receiving reparations, I said that Al Sharpton called for reparations in his tired old speech. Please read carefully! Now, you can trace back the horrors of one group upon another to the beginning of time. Christians were thrown to the lions. Should all Christians receive reparations? Many European descendants were put through many hardships under Hitler. How much do they get? Native American land was taken. Maybe they can use your yard. IF I DID NOT DO IT, I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE!!

Secondly, as I said, Yes! There were great American women in the past, but the Sons Of Liberty referred to a specific group of MEN. Yes they were MEN! They were not women. And even if the name was at all discriminatory to women, THAT IS WHAT THEY WERE CALLED! We are not in the business of rewriting history. I guess you want the word nigger removed from "Huckleberry Finn" because it is an offensive term. It is offensive, but at the time, that is the only thing that Huck would have to call him. The term African American had not yet been invented! The past is what it is.

Thirdly, I should not even dignify the drivel about the Muslim song. To suggest that I support such a song is nonsense. The analogy is totally illogical. Here is an idea. If the Saudis don't like their ficticious anthem, then write a new one, but don't go back and change the song and alter the fact that it ever existed. Because if we really wanted to change things of the past that were wrong, we could eliminate all references to slavery and just say that the slaves were distant cousins of Americans and that is how they got here. Then future generations would not be aware of the mistakes made in history. All they would know is that they were paying money to black families because people like you supported reparations. The lesson: YOU CAN"T CHANGE THE PAST!!!

And lastly, I am nowhere near rich, and yes, what I earn should be mine, not yours to redistribute to other people because they chose not to sacrifice as I did to get ahead. And before you start spouting off about what some people go through, believe me, I have been there. I accept the fact that my taxes go for the betterment in community and country in many social programs, but the line has to be drawn somewhere. By the description of your concept of government, you are definitely a socialist bordering on communism. I do not say this lightly just to get a jab in at you, but stances like yours are dangerous!

And any charitable contributions I decide to make are between me and God, not a liberal who wants to pay for someone's sex change operation, or abortion, or baby factory welfare machine.

Where do I begin? I find it hard to believe that you, Translator, even believe your own silliness.
----Gotta believe something

First of all, I never said that blacks ARE receiving reparations, I said that Al Sharpton called for reparations in his tired old speech.
----You're right, pardon.

Please read carefully!
----I'll try from now on. But you say so many foolish things that I'm just overwhelmed by them all and I start halucinating.

Now, you can trace back the horrors of one group upon another to the beginning of time. Christians were thrown to the lions. Should all Christians receive reparations?
----No, because they took revange on just about everyone (ever heard of the crusades? Ferdinand and Isabella? The Magna Carta?)

Many European descendants were put through many hardships under Hitler.
----What the bloody hell does that mean? Descendants of Europe? As in Europe being a place, and it having children, and those children suffering under Hitler (who was, by the same resoning, a european descendant as well)?.

How much do they get?
----If you mean (as I think you do) the descendants of the people who suffered under Hitler, then, well, depends. The Jews are still getting money; the forced labourers are too. The families of people who's property was appropriated by the Third Reich are also getting their stuff back. And so are the people who were forcibly expelled. So yeah, they are getting their things back.

Native American land was taken. Maybe they can use your yard.
----No, but here, in the more responsible Canada, they don't pay taxes, they get gov grants to help them survive, and they are not limited by Canadian Law. You mean to tell me that US natives aren't getting these same priveledges as repayment for the stuff the Americans did to them before?

IF I DID NOT DO IT, I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE!!
---But you live in a place that did it to them, and hence you should respect that place's past, and assume respoinsibilty for the negative things - because you are taking the benefits from that place for sure.

Secondly, as I said, Yes! There were great American women in the past, but the Sons Of Liberty referred to a specific group of MEN. Yes they were MEN! They were not women.
----Some of them were women. But they weren't acknowledged. Read your bloody history.

And even if the name was at all discriminatory to women, THAT IS WHAT THEY WERE CALLED!
----What, sons?

We are not in the business of rewriting history.
---I agree. So rename the "sons" to "sons and Daughters"

I guess you want the word nigger removed from "Huckleberry Finn" because it is an offensive term.
----First of all, that is fiction. Fiction is not history. Second, that has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Whereas "sons of liberty" refers to a historical group of people who did somethign or another, "nigger" is simply a negative epiteth. By using the first one, you are changing history. By using the second one, you are acknowlidging it.

It is offensive, but at the time, that is the only thing that Huck would have to call him. The term African American had not yet been invented! The past is what it is.
----ok, whatever you're trying to prove here.

Thirdly, I should not even dignify the drivel about the Muslim song. To suggest that I support such a song is nonsense. The analogy is totally illogical. Here is an idea. If the Saudis don't like their ficticious anthem, then write a new one, but don't go back and change the song and alter the fact that it ever existed.
----That's not what we would be doing here. By changing the song the Saudis would be changing their official outlook on life. By changing the "sons.." America would too. Changing something doesn't alter the fact that it existed, it may work to rectify soemthing that was falsely strung up in the first place.

Because if we really wanted to change things of the past that were wrong, we could eliminate all references to slavery and just say that the slaves were distant cousins of Americans and that is how they got here. Then future generations would not be aware of the mistakes made in history. All they would know is that they were paying money to black families because people like you supported reparations. The lesson: YOU CAN"T CHANGE THE PAST!!!
----Who's calling for that? Who's trying to change the past? What the hell are you talking about?

And lastly, I am nowhere near rich, and yes, what I earn should be mine, not yours to redistribute to other people because they chose not to sacrifice as I did to get ahead.
----You know nothing of sacrifice, then.

And before you start spouting off about what some people go through, believe me, I have been there.
----Yeah? Wanna bet you haven't? You have absolutely no clue then what people go through. No clue at all.

I accept the fact that my taxes go for the betterment in community and country in many social programs, but the line has to be drawn somewhere.
----Sure, let all those others rot in their hunger.

By the description of your concept of government, you are definitely a socialist bordering on communism.
----Bingo!

I do not say this lightly just to get a jab in at you, but stances like yours are dangerous!
-----If my satnce is dangerous, Jesus is dangerous, by your reasoning (which I would defintitely agree with).

And any charitable contributions I decide to make are between me and God, not a liberal who wants to pay for someone's sex change operation, or abortion, or baby factory welfare machine.
----What the freakin hell do sex operations have to do with children dying of hunger in africa? Can you get a grip, man?

Cheers, Translator

I am convinced that you are either saying these things to be controversial or you are a total moron. You ARE trying to change the past with your socialist revisionism.

Gee, you love Canada so much, a plane leaves for there quite often. You'll be back as soon as you need to see a doctor, because their socialist health care makes you wait six to twelve months for the poor care they provide. You choose to selectively change the things you want out of history and leave others go if it fits your socialist agenda. You say I am responsible for blacks suffering because I live in a country where bad things happened in the past. This is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard. Blame the innocent!! That makes a lot of sense.

Since you don't understand my references to Europe, I am a descendant of Polish and Lithuanian immigrants. Hitler invaded Poland, and Lithuania suffered under the Soviet Union. So my ancestry is marred with suffering. SO GERMANS AND RUSSIANS, SEND YOUR CHECKS TO ME BECAUSE YOU LIVE IN THOSE COUNTRIES THAT HURT MY GREAT GREAT GRANDFATHER! Now can you understand? Paying for someone elses sins is ridiculous!

You say I have no clue what people go through. The same can be said of your ignorance of my struggles. The difference between you and me is that I accept that many people suffer hardships, but I don't look to others to solve my problems for me, I am responsible and I worked my way through hard times.


Sex change operations and abortions are covered by most health plans. There is your real problem with health care. Stop using the money paid into my plan to support these assinine practices and costs would decrease. My tax dollars pay for health care for welfare recipients, so I pay for it. And don't give me welfare sob stories. I have family members who have been on welfare, but they used it for a short period of time to get on their feet, not as a way of life.

Why by the way do you mention Jesus? Your other post shows you to be an atheist. Don't compare yourself to Him. It won't work. Jesus was not a communist like you.

You do not belong in this land of freedom. I would say you should go to Iraq, but we are installing freedom over there. Communist China sounds like a good home for you.

Wait...who said Translator lived in America? Maybe he is from a communist country.

I am convinced that you are either saying these things to be controversial or you are a total moron.
----Controversial - who, me? Moron - I've been called worse before. But, I think, you get the first prize for the most moronic person to call me a moron.

You ARE trying to change the past with your socialist revisionism.
----Ahh, I see...You're one of those people who believe that changing the past is possible...that what happened can be reversed...that time can be undone...That one could steal the moon...
Face it, chump: the past cannot be changed, only our interpretation of it. If your interpretation is retarded, that's your business. If you want to think that the sky is made of blue pudding, that's fine with me. But know that you're alone in that boat, and alone you'll stay.

Gee, you love Canada so much, a plane leaves for there quite often. You'll be back as soon as you need to see a doctor, because their socialist health care makes you wait six to twelve months for the poor care they provide.
------1) I live in Canada, you brainless heap of protein. 2) If ever I go to the states to see a doctor, it's only if I got, oh, in the area of, about, 5 million bucks to spend on them. 3) What the hell are you talking about "the poor care they provide"? Are you Nuts (well, I know you're nuts, but I am just so increadibly surprised that a person could be nuts with a capital N)? The health care is Canada is, so to speak, kick-ass, and it rates as best in the world by just about every health-care rating organization out there. Sure we have some problems - sure we have occasional delays. But they're nowhere near 6 months, you idiot, except maybe for heart transplants and such - we don't have that many murders here to have a quick patient turnaround. If you have any Canadian friends (and I doubt you do - not many Canadaians would want to have anything to do with your pathetic foolish butt), talk to them about health care. They'll tell you, most likely, that if you break your leg in buffalo, try to hop accross the border to Canada, and collapse only then. You'll save a couple of grand.

You choose to selectively change the things you want out of history and leave others go if it fits your socialist agenda.
----I don;t selectively chage anything, for I can;t change the past. I selectively ask to revise our interpretation of the past, for it's still got elements of the most elementary racisms and sexisms despite this being the 21st century.

You say I am responsible for blacks suffering because I live in a country where bad things happened in the past.
----I'm saying that although you personally may not be resposible for their suffering, you are responsible for the payment for that suffering if you live in that country, if you call yourself an American, and if you want to use the rights and freedoms that country gives you an opportunity to use. Sorry, bud, but there is no free lunch. You want to enjoy being an American - you pay for America's sins, and you stop bitching about the payments. Otherwise I consider you, as should others, a nice big pile of smelly do do.

This is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard. Blame the innocent!! That makes a lot of sense.
----Don't blame me for your misunderstanding of what I wrote. Read my last post more carefully, moron, and find out that what I wrote above is exactly the same thing as I wrote before. So I'm sorry that you found something idiotic; but I am kind of glad it ended out to be your intelligence and comprehension.

Since you don't understand my references to Europe, I am a descendant of Polish and Lithuanian immigrants.
-----Nice and jolly for you. I am Polish, (lived and shitted in Gdansk, Warszawa, and Bialystok) with Ukrainian hints, Jewish at that, and I lived both in Russia and Germany. So?

Hitler invaded Poland, and Lithuania suffered under the Soviet Union.
----No freakin way? And here I thought Poland invaded germany, and Russia suffered under Lithuania...

So my ancestry is marred with suffering.
----boo hoo.

SO GERMANS AND RUSSIANS, SEND YOUR CHECKS TO ME BECAUSE YOU LIVE IN THOSE COUNTRIES THAT HURT MY GREAT GREAT GRANDFATHER!
-----Why don't you apply to the Hague? My grandparents (those who survived Aushwitz) did - and they got paid. Good luck.

Now can you understand? Paying for someone elses sins is ridiculous!
----It is ridicolous, until you sign a contract that says otherwise. You sign such a contract when you become an American. So pay up.

You say I have no clue what people go through. The same can be said of your ignorance of my struggles. The difference between you and me is that I accept that many people suffer hardships, but I don't look to others to solve my problems for me, I am responsible and I worked my way through hard times.
-----Gee, all those draught-stricken and famished colored people in sub-saharan Africa must simply be the laziest bastards ever to walk the earth, mustn't they be? I mean, you worked for your house and car, and did a good job at that, so why can't they? They're too lazy to even go to their doctors and take some drugs for dysentry, to buy some vitamins for their scurvy, and just decide to die right there in their mud shacks with their 40 children...(that's another thing - their houses are so ill-built! Can't they buy central air conditioning there? I mean, come on! A bunch of nea' r do wells!).

Sex change operations and abortions are covered by most health plans.
There is your real problem with health care. Stop using the money paid into my plan to support these assinine practices and costs would decrease.
----1) Abortions that 12 year old southern girls take because their fathers sometimes confuse them with their wives are, occasioanlly, health-meritted. Oh, You didn't know that? That women must reach a certain hip - to -body ratio to survive birthing? 2) What does your payment to black people and people who need food have to do with the above two things (sex operations and abortions) I ask again? Give me a straight answer. Because your insistance that health-care dolars are spent on those things has nothing to do with it (and, now that you've said it, I want you to show me, exactly, how much and of what type would a person willing a sex change get from your famed health care associations).

My tax dollars pay for health care for welfare recipients, so I pay for it. And don't give me welfare sob stories. I have family members who have been on welfare, but they used it for a short period of time to get on their feet, not as a way of life.
----Yeah, but some people abuse those things. So technically, you should be against wellfare as well. So what the hell? You're being very inconsistent.

Why by the way do you mention Jesus? Your other post shows you to be an atheist. Don't compare yourself to Him. It won't work. Jesus was not a communist like you.
----Jesus was the first communist. Do you even know what communism stands for? What its ideas cover? Have you ever read the Communist Manifesto? Das Kapital? The tons of research that came after? Have you compared that to what Jesus taught? Have you? Or are you just, as usual, talking out of your, er, lower end?

You do not belong in this land of freedom. I would say you should go to Iraq, but we are installing freedom over there. Communist China sounds like a good home for you.
----Man, I'm not even going to answer this little bit. This is the quintessential Pabillisman.

Wait...who said Translator lived in America? Maybe he is from a communist country.
----Of course I am. Had you paid attention to other posts, you would have found that out.

A tak w ogule, to jestes pan idiota doszczetnym, debilem i komplenta kanalia. Bardzo rzadko udaje mi sie spotkac glupszych od ciebie ludzi, wiec czasem jestem uszczesliwiony ze jedak takowi ludzie jak ty jeszcze istnieja. To mnie po prostu zabawia.

Mon Dieu....

Cheers, Translator



[This message has been edited by Translator (edited 08-07-2004).]

quote:

Originally posted by Translator:
Now can you understand? Paying for someone elses sins is ridiculous!
----It is ridicolous, until you sign a contract that says otherwise. You sign such a contract when you become an American. So pay up.

I have to step in here for a second....I don't know about the others, but I became an American when I was born; I wasn't really asked if I wanted to be one or not. And as I'd have to, in most cases, learn another language to go elsewhere and then go through the hoops of becoming a citizen of another country.....I'm too lazy to do that! Not to mention, I really hate moving!

I'll shut up, now.

I understand much of your post, Translator. I personally am opposed to reparations, as I think they represent an infinite regress. Simple as that. Even if I agreed with the moral elements of reparations (which I don't) I would still argue it would be absolutely impossible to manage them in a fair way.

I love Canada, but sometimes don't understand why so many Canadians (I haven't polled, but do read) seem to dislike/hate/resent Americans.

For a minimally populated country, the talent pool in literature and music in Canada is phenomenal. My own view is that both Alice Munroe and Margaret Atwood would be worthy recipients of the Nobel Prize in Literature. The physical beauty of your country is also stunning.

I wish our nations had closer ties. We share so many aspects of our culture and history.

One of my fantasies is still to go teach American Literature at a school in Canada. I traveled there a lot when I worked for Nortel and absolutly love Toronto. Is it Belleville that is about an hour's drive from there? A gorgeous place.