I suppose it could be an "atmospheric utopia" of sorts, but there were still interpersonal problems among the characters, right?

After all, we could live on earth with fewer health problems if we would take better care of our diet, health, fitness and environment; and if we would stop killing and maiming each other while drunk or engaged in fits of anger or in wars.

It really depends on what story you are reading, or what side of the coin comes up! The Martian stories are so often his most poetically narrated. A world long-civilized (beyond imagination), highly cultured, and a peaceful race is created on page. Yet, the earth characters ravage the landscape, obliterate the past, and defile the canals! Then you read "Million Year Picnic" and think how wonderful!

F451 ends with the cities destroyed. What a scene when the city inverts and falls down upon itself in total ruin! Yet, Montag walks to a new morning with ideas in his free mind that need to be shared!

In idyllic Green Town of Dandelion Wine, Douglas loses so much of his innocence in the summer of 1928 when friends leave, family members die, his psyche takes some bruising blows, and then he nearly dies. Yet, Mr. Jonas gives him cool air to breathe. Only then does Doug realizes new wonders await in autumns, winters, springs and summers to come!

Something Wicked brings the Good Vs. Evil into focus throughout the novel. Just when all seems lost (A dystopia of spirit looms) and the love of a father for his son (& vice versa) prevails.

RB can dig the deepest holes for society to fall into - with no way out! Yet, he also shines the brightest light on humanity when all seems about to slip away.

So, utopian or dystopian? How about a life-long Meliorist!? (See Mr. D's 1st post above.)

Consider from RB:
"We never sit anything out. We are cups, constantly and quietly being filled. The trick is knowing how to tip ourselves over and let the beautiful stuff out.

Stuff your eyes with wonder. Live as if you'd drop dead in ten seconds. See the world. It's more fantastic than any dream made up or paid for in factories.

Predicting the future is much too easy. You look at the people around you, the street you stand on, the visible air you breathe, and predict more of the same. To hell with more. I want better."

It may be that we are wrong to define a utopia as a problem-free environment. Perhaps man can only develop and grow in the context of adversity. If that is the case, man would be in a perpetual immaturity without the kinds of conflict we try to define out of a utopian proposition. Maybe a true utopia necesarrily includes the kinds of struggles that we want to wish away. The concept of a trouble-free utopia may just be naive -- based on how man actually grows.

Also,

I agree with the idea that in Martian Chronicles, there seems to be the idea the the ancient cultures were utopian; but since they ceased to exist, can't we surmise that something went wrong with them? And, like the argument that something real is better than something not-real, if the utopia ceases to exist, by definition it is no good?

It's kind of like one of the scholastic arguments for the existence of God. God is posited as being "That being than which no greater can be conceived". But a being that is real is always better than a being that is not real. Just like a stack of dollar bills is better than an imagined stack of dollar bills. So, by definition, God must be real -- otherwise, a being greater than Him could be conceived.

So a utopian existence that ceases to exist would have the problem that duration was not a part of it's defintion. How utopian is that?

Just some early morning idle speculation.

I need to know your references to quote you in my dissertation on Ray Bradbury, if you please can help me, my e-mail is ana.sernadas@netvisao.pt. Thank you for your help

Which particular references are you looking for? Can you give me dates on the postings?

Let me know.

In the 1-18-03 references, I do give the sources. Are these the ones you're talking about?



[This message has been edited by Mr. Dark (edited 02-24-2003).]

She seems to be talking about you e-mailing her your credentials to cite when quoting you.

I've emailed a Curriculum Vita (ana.sernadas@netvisao.pt). Can you let me know whether or not you received it? In the US, email addresses typically end in .xxx. Yours ended in .xx. I imagine it's fine, I just would like to know whether or not you received it.

Thanks,

Thank you Mr Dark, I have recieved your msg.Thank you very much

fjpalumbo would you please tell me where did you get the quotation you have on the posting 01-09-2003, it would help me quoting it, thank you

Depending on perspective, be it earthly or otherworldly, mortal or immortal, utopia should represent that state of being in which all needs are addressed with total satisfaction and are maintained until the utopian state ceases to exist, or perhaps evolves into something else.

We are physcial beings endowed with souls and analytical minds. Does it not stand to reason that any utopian state would mandate the incorporation of the spiritual presence implanted in man since the beginning of time? In otherwords, acknowledgement of our souls would enable our personal utopia.

In that regard, Bradbury exhibits a utopian approach to life. His writing demonstrates the consequences of seeking anything less than our own personal utopias. When he focuses on dystopian plots, many characters are driven by a quest to escape the choas. The Blue Bottle is a great example of a character's ceaselss pursuit of escape from dystopia.

C.



[This message has been edited by Celestial (edited 02-25-2003).]

As you seem to call it, the utopia. Now let me refer to my cult, the one I follow.. Dark Carnival. I am just drawing a line - The Utopia in their world is a such paradise called... "Shanger La".. which the "Wraith" sends them. That is just supposed to be a world where many people meet in after life in peace and respect each other - in the Dark Carnival's (not the Ray Bradbury's) world is called "Clown Love". That is all I have to say for today. Have luck at ya'll!

Ana - See "Education" @
http://www.spaceagecity.com/bradbury/quotes.htm#Future

aRe noone here replying to My reply, then?
*ssounds lame eh, doesn't it?*