A thought from James in reference to the source of evil:

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man; But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." (James 1:13-15)

This is not meant to be a comprehensive theological statement, just a followup to WritingReptile's comment that evil comes from within, not without.

Dan B:

Lucifer...(literally meaning: Bright and Shining Light, or Light-Bearer)...brought all the praises of angels...to God. That was his job (talking in the 'vernacular' here...). When he decided he should be getting the praises instead, when he sought to usurp the throne of God, Pride filled him.... In Pride he was thrown out, and as he "fell"...his name was changed to Satan.

Your asking..."Where does this imperfectness come from...?"

Well, scripture says Satan is the father of lies, and has been a deceiver from the beginning. Now, I guess it's time to either really search the scriptures, or find someone that is well seasoned in solid theology to ask...I'm still a Sophmore at best....

Writing Reptile:

I believe in the need of a Saviour, meaning I accept the 'reality' of ...the total depravity of man...or I wouldn't need a Saviour...

Otherwise, that would mean there might...'might'... be this tiny little itsy-bitsy bit of good or worthwhileness in me...that may somehow, eventually...get me through the wretched darkness. At long last coming to understand that there is ...'no good thing in me'...I realize that man (meaning mankind) is capable of ...a depth of evil beyond understanding.

Hell is man... finally experiencing totally the very stuff of his soul...which is a destroyed soul. All he ever thought was good in him, was in fact, God inserting an image of Himself, and now withdrawing it, if man rejects his Creator...Man is left to his bankrupt self....alone!

Because of His great Love...Christ infused fallen man with Himself and He did this (get this)......before the... 'foundation of the universe'. That's found in Ephesians 1, and elsewhere.

The Word (the name of Christ Before He became a man...)...became flesh, but this "light" was not recognized by the World ...Christ (the Light) is rejected..."the darkness did not comprehend the Light". That's
found in book of John, and elsewhere.

Now, In Something Wicked This Way Comes, the personification of Evil ...(Mr. Dark)..meets Mr. Halloway in the library...and "commands" the librarian to bow down before him. No where....as far as I can see...does Mr. H. rest on the strength that God has given him. It is...sort of...silently undertstood.

And THAT...brings me to a point Mr. Dark (our beloved Web-poster)...made...which was that ...Ray doesn't speak much about things directly relating to God's power, or Christ... (paraphrasing this loosely)...

THIS... was always a question I had for years: Why doesn't Ray just come out and..."preach it." Or at least, be more direct!!

(That's why I was upset when laughter...banished evil... at least in the movie.)

The reason is....Ray is finding himself upon ground he does not quite know....He knows, but doesn't really know... He treads lightly. Pushed...he will retreat with silence. Now I love this man. If God struck Him with a deep, deep understanding of Himself...from Ray would explode the likes you have never seen before....something appearing like scripture itself in all his writings....Now...just how marvelous...or how dangerous is that...handled well...or mis-handled...?

So, What is the Bottom Line of Ray's Writings....I will agree with Dan B:

Seek!



[This message has been edited by Nard Kordell (edited 02-02-2003).]

Nice quote, Mr. Dark, thanks for that.

Regarding the total depravity of man...

Why is it so easy to accept the darkest side of "man" and not acknowledge his equally boundless potential for love and goodness?

I don't think it invalidates the "Savior" to think we have that spark of good within us. We all need guidance to bring that spark to it's full potential, spiritually as well as more practically--love from our family, justice in our community...

Besides, isn't it a CHOICE to accept Christ as savior? Ultimately, aren't we all responsible for our own salvation...or damnation?

And regarding whether Ray should just Preach It...isn't it better to have him prod us to think than TELL us what to think?

[This message has been edited by WritingReptile because he can never get it right the first time (edited 02-03-2003).]

[This message has been edited by WritingReptile (edited 02-03-2003).]

"All he ever thought was good in him, was in fact, God inserting an image of Himself"

Or perhaps God is merely man PROJECTING an image of the best of himself...



[This message has been edited by WritingReptile (edited 02-03-2003).]

In Charles Halloway's long speech in "Something Wicked This Way Comes," Ray points out man had already evolved far (or, if you like, risen to a certain point after a fallen state) by the time Christ entered the picture. The world was not necessarily "nice," but had attained a level of civilization not possible in a totally depraved state.

The theological debate on the depravity of man is both compelling and interesting. Clearly, from a Biblical perspective, man has fallen. Does that mean, however, that man is totally evil, worthless, and an affront to God?

Jonathan Edwards, in a sermon called, "Sinners in the hands of an Angry God", compared man to spiders and God to a man at a campfire, dangling these spiders over the fire, waiting to drop them in to their deaths -- with no consideration but his own whim. Is this a valid biblical image of God?

I think WritingReptile is right to highlight the fact that there is good in man. While the Bible talks frequently of the fall and the sinfullness of man, it also speaks to the fact that we are God's unique creation -- in God's mind, more akin to his beloved children than to spiders dangling over a fire:

"For as many as are led by the spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear: but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness to our spirit, that we are the children of God: and if children, then heirs: heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." (Romans 8:14-17)

This is one of the qualities that American Transcendentalism brought into the discussion on Christianity. In the revivals in New England in the early 1800s, there was an almost total focus on the fallen state of man, on his depravity, and on his just condemnation to hell -- regardless of any personal evil committed. I think there is a balance of good in man that shouldn't be overlooked.

For me, Bradbury's characters evoke a sense of hope in the character of man. They are definitely flawed, but there are many characters throughout Bradbury's fiction who represent goodness and kindness and wisdom and love. When there are characters who represent evil (Mr. Dark, for example), there are also characters who counter that evil in the same work. For Bradbury, there does seem to be an awareness and assumption of the good inherent in the human race; but without any kind of naive idealism that pretends there is not evil.

Writing Reptile/ Mr. Dark:

Come one, you guys, are you really reading my comments?

Starting to sound like that old saying..."God made man in His image...and man decided to return the favor..."

Dandelion:
Was sad to hear what you had to say...on above post. Tis another piece to that puzzle I have....

>>>> Come one, you guys, are you really reading my comments?

Not only did I read them, I thought about and responded to them...rather than dismiss them altogether.

I don't mean to tread on your personal beliefs, Nard. We are each of us interpreting Ray's work through that personal prism of ours. I do think there is room for more than one view.

And our little discussion lead Mr. Dark to this:

"For me, Bradbury's characters evoke a sense of hope in the character of man... "

I think that whole paragraph is as good a bottom line as any. Bravo, Mr. Dark. You could write a book on that one!

I guess I have two things on your question:

"Come one, you guys, are you really reading my comments?"

My answer to that is, "yes". My question back to you is, Did you read the Romans passage? Clearly, from a Biblical perspective, there is room for discussion -- based on Paul's writings here -- as to what God's Biblical view of man is. Clearly, man has fallen. God -- based on his own goodness AND HIS LOVE FOR MAN (not on his hatred or contempt for man) -- sent his son into the world to provide for our salvation from sin and death.

Theology must take in the entire message of the New Testament in order to come to an understanding of what the message of the New Testament is. There are multiple gospels, multiple writers, multiple issues addressed, multiple audiences, etc. TOGETHER, these give us a view of God and our situation before him. What is required is a synthesis of the teachings across the board in the NT. As I have posted elsewhere, Paul (in Acts) was cited several times, as "reasoning from scripture".

Also, the question is, what is Bradbury's view of this. I think that, based on my input above, he sees an inherent goodness in man that overcomes the evil that Bradbury also recognizes in his writing. Bradbury sees and shows both the good and evil in man. Many of his stories involve the unfolding of the nature of man as these conflicts are dealt with.

The fact that I may disagree with some of your perspectives does not mean I didn't read your postings, nor does it indicate I did not give any thought to them. I respect your passion and your beliefs. That doesn't mean we will agree on all things.




[This message has been edited by Mr. Dark (edited 02-03-2003).]

Writing Reptile / Mr. Dark / Others

Well, fellows, it's like this.... I guess I have to write more clearly....

In the meantime, this week, I'll be out more often, due to a week long, Founder's Week Conference at the church I attend, Dwight Moody Church, in Chicago. .

Lots of speakers this week, and sessions, including Billy Graham's son, Franklin Graham... It's available on the Radio, AND on-line, Live! So I will interject with "persuasive" postings... when I can....

click on: http://www.moody.edu/

and: http://www.mbn.org

[This message has been edited by Nard Kordell (edited 02-03-2003).]

I, for one, will miss the dialog while you're gone. Hope you guys have a conference that provides a solid spiritual uplift!

Hurry back, Nard. This board may at turns be controversial, blasphemous, frustrating, maddening, irritating, and downright baffling, but the worst thing it could ever be is...quiet.

The topic had gone off the theme to a theology. I think the bottom line could not be represented in one word. Why's then to write the whole Something Wicked or F451?

Now about theology: God is God and he then makes no difference between good and evil. I mean that he of course differs them otherwise what's then a sin? But I mean that his dids cannot be concidered as only good and only bad. If they would then there is someone who judge them as good and as bad. And a man as his creation also is a unity of good and evil. Excuse me but I could not say it as you know this phrase cause I do not have an english Bible, but God created man according to His self. Why then he would throw us into the flames? Also I want and I probably need to find something good or just something that causes to feel sorry for Mr.Dark. As it is a book I can find what I want in it. But how do you, fellows -) think? Is there in the end of the book probably something that could give a hope that he is not the evil itself? And also you only say Mr.Dark, Mr.Dark! And what about Mr.Cooger? And by the way what does his name means? And when he is very old could he do any evil then? And also a question: why the Witch can do such a things like she did to Jim and Will. She made them blind, deaf, in general - puppets. Why she can do this? Only because they are afraid of her? Or because they did not smile at the moment? And then what is the part of the wind in SWTWC? It plays the calliop. Why?

No matter what I read on this board, I learn more about Mr. Bradbury than if I'd sat down and read every word he's ever written. Around here, more often than not, the topic flips to theology, philosophy, religion or God with some Bradburesque spin on the actual topic.

This is not a complaint: I'm in heaven!!!

Since I'm fairly new to the literary goldmine found in Bradbury's words and story plots, I am relying on all of your insights lurking between each line consummed.

In identifing what he is saying to the readers thoughout his writings, usually the final chapter of any solid story brings home the message the author is trying to convey. If you only read the final pages or last chapter of Bradbury's works, you'd probably be able to answer this question.

'Seek' is a great one-word answer. But being a person of elaboration, I would venture further and say....Seek, and you shall find, or perhaps,.......Never stop seeking, for you shall always find something new.

As a person struggling to make a difference, and guided by the intangible inspiration of Bradbury and other great writers, I am drawn to a favorite quote that reminds this writer of her focused intent.

"No eye has seen, nor ear has heard; no mind has conceived what God had prepared for those who love Him" c- "But God has revealed it to us by His Spirit." (I Corinthians 2:6)

Oh yeah, Mr. Dark. I'm still waiting for an answer on your user choice here. It can't be the obvious reason.

Celestial


[This message has been edited by Celestial (edited 02-05-2003).]

In my mentally corroded mental state, I'm not sure what you mean by "user choice". Do you mean the posting name I use, is this some reference to something else.

Sorry. "I was young once . . ."

I'll gladly give the best answer I can when the root of the question penetrates my skull.