I am rather surprised that I haven't seen any of your opinions on the war on Ray's perspectives. I have read many stories of Ray Bradbury and some included war. I can't recall the exact names of the short stories but they were definitely in Illustrated man. What was his message about war alone? I also feel like comparing Saddam to Macbeth. In the play when the English army was on its way to Scottland and Macbeth was sure of it he dressed back to his army uniform. And it looks like Saddam has done the same thing. Just like Macbeth he is not good at being a king or (a president). Macbeth wanted to die as a general and not as a king. And I strongly believe that Saddam has the same intention. However I believe that war will not solve any problems permenantly and Ray hasn't mentioned in any of his stories that war is a moral choice, but humanity has become so cruel by 2003 and it can't be stopped. I don't want to get into the present issue of Iraq and so on because we all know that but I just posted this message to make sure of what you think of Ray's stories about war.
Thanks.

p.s.-Mr. Dark and the rest of the people who replied to my message on NASA...No strong feelings Sirs and Ma'ms it is just how I feel. Hence I respect each and every opinion. Thanks. (Personally I do not support war no matter what the circumstances are)

[This message has been edited by SharktheFish (edited 03-18-2003).]

That's an interesting thought. I've never tried to compile any kind of war theory from Bradbury's writings. My off-hand recollection is that he seems to write about war as an "out-there" kind of event or as the aftermath of a nuclear explosion. He doesn't seem to write about war like a Hemingway or (in SciFi circles) a Heinlein. I'll have to thumb through some stories and see if I'm remembering this correctly. I can't think of a story of his that is about soldiers in the middle of a battle or war (Maybe something in Martian Chronicles?). (I'm happy to be proven wrong on this.)

On war. I see it as sometimes being a necessary evil. When we fight cancer, we often take very intrusive measures to remove the cancer, in an effort to save the organism. If doctors can remove a cancer, but refuse to do so, we "blame" them for negligence.

With Hussein, it is perhaps arguable whether this situation warrants this; but (1) he has invaded two neighboring nations (unprovoked), (2) he's gassed his own people, and enemies in war, (3) he subsidizes Palestinian suicide bombers, (4) he murders and tortures his own people, and (5) Very few international leaders believe he has even come close to being forthcoming with his stockpiles of WMD. He is directly responsible (putting these activities together) for over one million deaths, and unnumbered maimings. If he is not a cancer in need of removal, he is very, very close.

I enjoyed your "interests" line in your profile.

Slight theory here: Ray was rejected by the military and had no combat experience. Good thing for him AND the military, I say, but, I believe you are more likely to see combat stories from those who actually served or were close to those who did, such as Rod Serling. Was Heinlein in the military? The only war stories of Ray's I can think of are "The Drummer Boy of Shiloh" (the night before the battle--with only an imaginary description of how the battle might be) and "The Ducker" and "Bang! You're Dead," WWII stories at least one of which appears in the "Dark Carnival" reissue. Offhand I can't think of a *thing* of Ray's anything like the "confederation vs. the empire"-type conflicts as in "Dune" and "Star Wars." Even "The Martian Chronicles" represent personal conflicts or accidental deaths such as by disease--not armed conquest or resistance. He wrote a few stories such as "The Time Machine" and "Lafayette, Farewell" about old men affected by wars long past, but I can't think of any about a person's reactions, even on the homefront, to an ongoing war.

Dandelion: That would gel with my memory -- except your input has much more detail and a real knowledge base, rather than my representation of an enfeebled memory. Thanks.

It is interesting that in all the writing he's done -- much of it involving conflict -- there is so little on war and on it's direct experience to participants and bystanders alike.

What was the story about all the blood flowing down the aqueducts (of Mars?). Was that a war statement or something else?

What about the way he chose to end F-451 would that not be in some way how he thought society was headed, then he proposed a potential future?

"The Acqueduct" was an allegorical comment on the attitudes of a society which tolerated or even encouraged war as being good for the economy. He also wrote many stories of nuclear holocaust. In "The Martian Chronicles," colonists returned to earth to see what was left. "The Highway" is an interesting look at the complete panic of people from civilized regions contrasted with the unaffected lifestyle of a rural peasant. "And the Rock Cried Out" deals with instability in a third world country, presumably South America, at a time when conflict suddenly breaks out--not like nowadays when "Americans and other foreign nationals" are repeatedly warned well in advance to leave certain regions! Perhaps in this case the element of surprise was important, as was certainly true in the September 11 attacks, when the general public never saw anything coming. He also dealt to some extent with the aftermath of war in "The Smile" and "There Will Come Soft Rains," but not so much descriptions of combat, shortages, refugeeism, and so on.

Another one of Ray's short stories that deals with war is "A Piece of Wood", which appears in his collection LONG AFTER MIDNIGHT. I have interpreted the story as one which bemoans man's proclivity toward war and violence, despite the urgings of those who call for peace.

S the F: Your statement, "I believe that war will not solve any problems permanently" raises the questions, what would the past 60 years have been like without the efforts of those from what many political scientists and critics call the "greatest generation." How would the world of Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, and Hirohito evolved? Not a very comforting consideration - don't you agree?
How about the countless lives lost while SH built dozens of palaces to secure his image over the past decade?

Today real sacrifices are just down the road for all of us. Some are now occurring in our restricted daily routines. What price freedom! Our troops are answering the call as I type this post.

As for Mr. Bradbury, how about "The City"? The men were sent out loaded with biological warfare onboard their ship (WMD). The terror the enemy had long hidden was meant for only one use, the long awaited return of the conquerors.

Let us hope, for the sake of everyone on earth, our brave officers and the young men under their supervision can find such real stores before they are let loose upon unexpecting populations!

We may have to prove our resolve and become the "next great generation." It is the lives of the generations to come that will benefit or suffer from the legacy we leave. Actions and commitment change things. Many of RB's stories imply this: The Other Foot, F451, MC, SWTWC, Rocket, Long Rain, Toynbee Convector, etc. etc.

Sitting back, doing nothing brings on the Firemen, the world of The Pedestrian, Exiles, Usher II, Pillar of Fire, and, as Dandelion forewarned in her post, There Will Come Soft Rains!!

Final thought, peace has always had a price!



[This message has been edited by fjpalumbo (edited 03-19-2003).]

Thanks, fjpalumbo, you've worded it much better than I ever could, and you've made me feel better tonight about what's on the way.

Don't have the name right in front of me this instant, but he lived in Grecian times, and said this:

When there is Peace, prepare for War...

And otherwise... When there is war... Prepare for peace!

'nuff said.
Nay, what may you mean? Ray's opinion on the war in Iraq? Well, who knows.. anyone asked him or saw referances to it in his book, or are there made any books in this era commenting it, have he said any comments about it (the war) I whould gladly know.



[This message has been edited by OleManiaC (edited 04-06-2003).]

I don't know what Ray thinks about Iraq specifically, though I think Ray tends to take a larger view of things. Here's a quote from an appearance he made last year.

[full text of his comments are at ]http://www.hollywoodinvestigator.com/2002/bradbury.htm]

>>>>>>>>>>>>

"We're the in-between generation," said Bradbury. "We've only been out of the cave a few years, and we have to forgive ourselves. Because we're a mess in many ways. There are eight or nine wars going on right now. We're only paying attention to two of them, in Afghanistan and in the middle east. And there are others which we're ignoring.

"But we have to forgive ourselves, because eventually we'll go back to the moon, we'll go to Mars, and we'll leave all this behind. We'll have an effort to start fresh. It's like the immigration to America four hundred, five hundred years ago. I have hope for the future."

Ray's perspective on war usually seems to center on the pointless tragedy of it in the past tense- There will come soft rains, Embroidery, The Highway.

A Piece of Wood is an interesting exception to this- one where the name comes from the idea that even by ridding man of his machines, we will never rid him of the darkness that causes him to murder, and then to justify it. There is also a bit in this story, though, where I detected a bit of impatience with those who are so immediately dismissive of peace.

Space travel is a fine goal, but we have to never lose sight that, if Mr. Bradbury's idealistic expectations of it are to be fulfilled, the people going to Mars need to be more like the family in the last chapter of the Martian Chronicles, and not there to set up a hotdog stand.

Mr. Dark-
I would never argue that Hussein is a cancer. But realistically, these cancers have always been out there, and we do not always act as we have recently done. Why is this, do you suppose? Sometimes we even give the Cancers weapons and financial support in the misguided hope that they'll take out a 'bigger' Cancer. But Cancer is Cancer.
I have nothing but contempt for Hussein's murderous regime, and it is in this way that the peace supporters most debase themselves- by demanding that we leave Iraq alone now that we've gone in, they are simplemindedly endorsing a course of action that would cause the slaughter of the Iraqis that we've managed to help rather than to murder.
I have nothing but contempt for Hussein, and would breathe a sigh of relief should he be gone.
The reason that I have and will continue to assert that our entry into this conflict was a mistake stems from our misleading and blundering road to war: our failure to recognize views of the international community, the trumping up of intellegence reports that said what we wanted them to say, our false (and cleverly, nearly unstated) association of Hussein with Bin Laden under the Blanket of Evil, and the reliance upon a culture of fear in our country to build mindless support for actions abroad.

Hopefully, as Mr. Bradbury seems to hope, we'll reach other worlds someday. Let's hope that we don't take too much of ourselves with us, and God forbid, let's not carelessly plop our flag down on someone elses world without thinking of the long term consequences.

With much respect,
Dan

[This message has been edited by DanB (edited 04-13-2003).]

[This message has been edited by DanB (edited 04-13-2003).]

For the wastefulness of war, see "Lafayette Farewell," and, as far as wastefulness goes, Bradbury might well feel the destruction of priceless antiquities in libraries and museums to be the most deplorable in this war.