I recognize that F451 is a classic. It obviously has great vision concerning censorship, but otherwise, the book left me flat. Bradbury's vision of the future concerning women (Guy's wife and her friends) were right out of the 1950s. I could almost see them in dresses and pearls like the Beaver's mom! What do you think?

I've remarked on his attitude towards women many a time, and even wrote a college paper on it. It's the one topic on which, I would guess, he is the most touchy and extremely defensive out of several potential hotbutton subjects. Living with a wife and four daughters born in Southern California between 1949 and 1958--think about it, they probably all attended colleges which were hotbeds of feminism--I fail to see how his attitude even survived (and I'm talking about things written well into the late 60s at least--yes, the 50s ones are perhaps understandably dated--that was the "baby boom" and all the women were home raising kids). Bradbury is no Heinlein on the subject of women! A young woman once wrote him that "The Martian Chronicles" should be rewritten, make one of the captains a woman and so on, and she received one of his most blistering responses recorded to date. (I'm at least partially with her. Can't find the quote in my 1985 edition, so perhaps it's been removed, but it goes like, "These were the first men. Everyone knew who the first women would be." Sure, the book is, in some ways, a parable based on the old west, but I MEAN!!!) I don't know, but *suspect* his daughters and their friends put him through hell on this, and he overreacts so at the mere suggestion of it that even raising the subject is a sure way to set him off. The most he said about my paper, by the way, is that it gave him many interesting ideas to munch on. I don't think the portrayal of Millie and her friends is all that far off, though. It's a picture of a future in which people are waited on by machines and the idea is that not having to work would tend to make them a bit shallow and insipid, and that people such as Clarisse would be the exception, not the rule.

Comments on this: See "Coda" that follows F451 (in more recent copies). Being P.C. has never been the intent of his writing. I can not remember any story in which he has demeaned anyone or any group, however.
In a situation for a major tv project (in video RB: American Icon) when asked to alter his works to be more "glitzy", he told them all where to go and left the pen and contracts on the table and he walked out of the meeting.

Allowing HIS words to live was done Quicker than the Eye. He writes what he has lived and that's that.

He refers to changes as "slenderized, starved, bluepenciled, bleached, skinned, boned, rendered down, demarrowed...shot dead!" (Coda,F451)

Interestingly, a recent discussion on public radio was telling about a new totally gender correct Bible. In the same telecast they were explaining why the wording of some passages had also been changed. Reason -today's readers are not up on all of the inferences and allusions. So changing the original text is the simplest way to solve the problem! (Maybe more literacy might be considered.)

LOL...yes, when Bradbury was writing the script for "Moby-Dick," John Huston arranged for a telegram to be delivered to him appearing to be from the studio saying they couldn't do the picture unless a beautiful girl was added. Bradbury threw down the message and actually stomped on it! Some of Huston's pranks were cruel, but that was a goodie. Bradbury got him back by showing up dressed in a kilt for some important function. (Alas, no videos!) I think he is open to rewriting within reason. For instance, when I pointed out that in "Frost and Fire," Sim mentions bringing back five hundred men, but no women--pretty basic requirement for establishing a new population--thought old Sim had more on the ball than that--Bradbury just said, "I'll have to reread that story." I think what he objects to are PC changes that compromise the original tone of the story without improving anything. Constructive criticism is all right if delivered delicately. He is said NOT to take excessive criticism well. He never answered any of William F. Nolan's objections to "Something Wicked This Way Comes," but looking at his shelf one day Bill noticed he had autographed copies of all Ray's works except SW. As far as demeaning any person or group, of COURSE he doesn't--intentionally. It's his ability to overlook the advances and achievements of certain groups that makes him come off a bit chauvenistic. Technology changed women's lives A LOT between 1900 and 1950! In 1900, housework really was a full-time job for a woman, who often needed the help of daughters and possibly a hired worker. By 1950, there were vacuum cleaners, electric ovens, washers and dryers. (A big one--"wash day" used to take up all day on Mondays--although later you couldn't just remove and wash the collar and cuffs--you had to wash and iron the whole shirt.) It should have occurred to him that 50 years after all these advances were commonplace, women *might* get a little bored in the kitchen. The nearest example I can think of is Lydia in "The Veldt" complaining the automatic house made her feel unneeded. (An excellent detail, by the way--consider all the "weekend pioneers" nowadays looking for a challenge.) Maybe working in the home was actually seen as an advance in the 1950s, when so many women in the 40s had to work outside the home due to the war. In the days before stay-at-home dads, perhaps men even felt a bit jealous and out of the loop. Minority groups are not so much demeaned in Bradbury's stories as ignored. When they do appear at all, they generally don't come off well. Probably his two most objectionable stories in terms of demeaning are "Way in the Middle of the Air" and "The Other Foot." Pre-Rosa Parks, it's true, but Booker T. Washington and others had made great advances in education for blacks, yet supposedly 50 years down the road from these stories, at least in the south, they were still illiterates working for whitey. They've always objected to defaming portrayals, too--look at the riots following "Birth of a Nation" in 1915. Of course, there you get into censorship, another touchy issue. The rocket ships were the equivalent of the "ship 'em back to Africa" plan which was tried in the early 20th Century and didn't work. It seems that, given his ability to predict technological advances a good 40-50 years ahead, with just a *shade* more imagination Bradbury could have predicted some sociological advances by observing trends already taking place in 1950 which burst out full force within the next 15 years or so! He caught it from disabled interests for his TV story "Walking on Air." People accused him that instead of wanting to solve their problems here on earth, he proposed just shipping 'em all off to space. (In this case, it seemed more as if people bitter at their own limitations were taking it out on him--but just an example of some of the heat he has taken.) No doubt taking criticism from so many quarters does tend to render him a bit defensive at times. You CAN'T write literature worried about what other people think, which doesn't mean you shouldn't endeavor to be fair!

[This message has been edited by dandelion (edited 02-08-2002).]

Wow dude you got lots to say

Interesting stuff

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We are building an army of extraordinary magnitude. We forge our spirits in the traditions of our ancestors. Dr. Klahn has your gratitude.


May you never spontaniously combust... and all that jive...

I was reading a book called Dark Matter the other day, which is sort of an exploration of African American Sci-Fi, and it had a commentary in it that mentioned how Bradbury was one of the early white science fiction writers that actually talked about race issues. I didn't see any negative undertones in their review. I think that his stories had sort of a "worst case scenario" idea to them.

I read "The Other Foot" again last night and it does contain a lot of good writing and ideas. The only unexplained thing (anyone who has recently read "The Martian Chronicles" feel free to jump in here) was why the white race didn't grab all the best Martian land first, as they traditionally do. Several unpleasant little run-ins with native unwelcoming committees would slow down, but not stop them. In "The Other Foot," the black people seemed to think they were the only humans on Mars, while other stories indicate the presence of whites who were responsible for wiping out the Martian race. Maybe in reviewing these stories the "pre-Rosa Parks" aspect was taken into account. And "The Big Black-and-White Game" works even today. It can be read as an example of how race relations have CHANGED very much in 50 years--but have they IMPROVED all that much?

I get really scared when people want writings changed to make it more current/relevant to the modern times.

I have Ray Bradburys CODA, and give people copies of it when ever a question is ask why things shouldn't be changed.

If stories (including the bible) get updated to the latest political terms, the original meaning and the context of when it was written is lost. Each revision/edit taking it further away from what the author intended, being that a reflection of society, culture or political views.
I hope the line
"These were the first men. Everyone knew who the first women would be."
hasn't been removed from modern editions of Martian Chronicles (can someone verify?) as this line is most probably just as valid as it was when it was written.

I read once that there were editions that had some of the more racial stories removed, It was written to be read and if it is not printed, then it becomes an issue of some people knowing the original and some people knowing the new,

every land and culture will have some secrets they would rather forget, but if we forget (don't publish), how can we be sure that we don't make the same mistakes.

Students Everywhere!

More information for our....
"Hope For The Future" ....
...to munch on, per Fahrenheit 451...
from earlier-in-the-year Archives...........

Thanks for bumping this thread up, Nard. I knew these old threads were there, for those who cared to look, but didn't want the job of going through all previous messages seeking them out, so I just sort of hinted at it in one of my posts on the subject.