The very first thought that came to me when I heard the death of Saddam's sons is a part of Fahrenheit 451. When Montag sees himself getting arrested on a TV screen while in reality he is still on the run. I might be right or wrong but all I know is war is a dirty immoral business and Ray has certainly proved it in most of his work.

[This message has been edited by SharktheFish (edited 07-22-2003).]

Hello, Mr. Sharkthefish,

Couldn't let this one pass me by after a sort of similar discussion on another thread.

I'm a little unclear on your point: are you saying that perhaps the deaths of Saddam's sons is greatly exaggerated? That perhaps, like the instance in F-451 that you quote, this entire thing was ginned up? I'll admit, it wouldn't be the first time in this war where apparant good news turns out to be something less so but it seems to me to equate this event with the one in F-451 is a little premature.

War is a "dirty, immoral business?" Well, the problem that I see in making these kinds of blanket statements is that there are always exceptions. True, I'm hard-pressed to find much in Mr. Bradbury's work that is inherently "pro-war" - and I'm a great admirere of a "A Piece of Wood" in particular, which nicely sums up the inherent violent nature in man - but I don't think anyone's going to mourn the loss of these two tyrants.

Can you, or anyone out there, think of any instances where war is ever justified? If not, I'm sure the victims of these wonderful guys, as well as the victims of tyrannical monsters everywhere, might be able to supply us with plenty.

Respectfully,

Pete Terranova
Oklahoma City

Sharkthefish:

Yes... we shall probably see many instances like this. One of the earliest, if not the first, was when O.J. Simpson was on the run...and the cameras followed him along the LA freeway, and heliocopter cameras watched as he walked into his home from the escaping vehicle. We knew that WAS him.

Here, we are listening to the best multiple sources around the world, that pinpoint to the death of both sons. IF, in fact they are still alive somewhere, well... shades of 451!!

( By the way, I was listening to a detailed description of the.. "weapons of mass destruction". Do you know how large these weapons are? How massive? Well, they all would fit neatly inside 1/2 a truck load.
I say, best guess, they ...[ 8000 litres of anthrax, plus some other items ]...will be found somewhere in the year 2155, with good luck. )



[This message has been edited by Nard Kordell (edited 07-22-2003).]

Thanks for your replies Mr.Nard Kordell
and pterran. I can only think about it and wonder what happened or what's happening but I have nothing else to say other than just hoping that the society will someday understand "the warnings" of Mr. Bradbury which is perfectly sensible and could certainly come in to reality.

I don't know that anyone is pro-war, but until tyranny ends, and nations stop invading other nations, we will have war.

I think that is why debates on things like "just war" theory are so important. When is it just to go to war? What type of warfare is legitimate? How many deaths is too many? What about civilain casualties?

I think the major point of F451 is not that war is bad (who would argue that it is good as a normative human activity?) but that a free society allows us to have an open, honest debate on these issues so we can try to do the best thing we can under trying circumstances. When this freedom to openly debate fundamental issues is lost, then there is no hope of finding peaceful resolutions to tyranny -- whether domestic or foreign.

The first thing I thought when it was confirmed that they really were dead was GOOD. It gives people in Iraq a sorely-needed excuse to party. The thing that fascinates me about the F451 scene is not only the happy ending/make the public feel safe manipulation of the news, but that they were able to digitally blur or perhaps even digitally alter the features of the poor schmuck they'd chosen to attack as Montag's substitute, depicting a technology way ahead of its time!

Dandelion,

Good point about the depiction of technology way ahead of its time. That's what always struck me about F-451: how way ahead of its time it was/is. I was especially intrigued by Bradbury's mention of the violence of youth. It was as if he was gazing into some kind of crystal ball on the future. We look back on the 50s as halcyon days but perhaps there was something going on that concerned Bradbury enough to make this prediction about youth. (I mean, something besides the atomic scare.)

Anyone else?

Oh, and Sharkthefish, your welcome about the comments. Just trying to participate in the open and honest debate that Mr. Dark refers to.

Pete

Well, in 1950s England there were gangs like the Teddy Boys and in the U. S. the film "Blackboard Jungle" described the attitude of a certain class of neglected children who turned to violence as teenagers. One of the most popular phrases to describe troubled families is "we weren't the Cleavers." The way it's used now implies many 1950s families were and there's something wrong with modern families, but indications actually are that a lot of 1950s families weren't.

A Clockwork Orange is another great novel that deals with a totally rudderless youth segment and high technology ways of trying to deal with them. Also deals with issues of free will, accountability, the nature of being human, etc. Very good book. Interesting use of language, as well.

Don't forget "Rebel Withour A Cause" 1955 with James Dean, Sal Mineo, Natale Wood and Jim Backus (Mr. Magoo). I just watched this film again for the umpteenth time. It was shot on my high school, Santa Monica High and contains a scene of Jimmy stepping on the "seal" on senior walk, which all freshmen had to "polish", enforced by the seniors, of course. The "seal" is now pulled up and relocated to a wall, another tradition gone with the wind. This film is about the lack of parential guidence and involvement and how some families neglected their kids even while seemingly there all the time for them. It is as real a lesson today as it was in 1955. Money does not ensure happiness or a trouble-free life. Love is the real necessity. And I love the Griffith Observatory scenes, as they always remind me of my time and trips there to learn about the universe. The difference between this film and say "Clockwork Orange" is that even the "Bad" kids in the movie were really good kids. They just had to do something to the new guy to test his mettle. It seems that the kids portrayed in the movies now are just plain mean and vicious. When the switch blade are replaced with nine millimeter guns there is no time for drama, only the violence remains. It is peculiar coincidence, but Glenn Ford of "Blackboard Jungle" graduated from Santa Monica High as well.

Rebel Without a Cause was a great movie as was East of Eden. I started rereading EOE before Oprah selected it (I applaud her choice but am patiently waiting for her to select one of Bradbury's). I am in awe of Steinbeck's genius as well as Bradbury's.

Thanks for all the details about where it was shot. I always thought the observatory scene was a Hollywood set. Is the Griffith Observatory in Santa Monica?

Green Shadow:

Griffith Observatory is in... Griffith Park, in Los Angeles.
Heard Ray speak there once. Remember he came with his wife on that occasion. Also, it appears in one of the last scenes of the movie, The Rocketeer.

Okay, the address is:
4800 Western Heritage Way, LA. 90027 And the phone is:
323 664 1191.
It's an interesting drive up to the observatory. When you are there, the large stone balconies surrounding the observatory building itself...have this spectacular overview of Los Angeles, and at night it's photogenic....50 cent telescopes are available to look down into the streets and peoples of LA.

A little off topic, but if you're in LA, another cool place to go -- that isn't too far away -- is Mount Wilson Observatory. It's pretty cool. We used to have a parent drop us off with out bikes at the observatory and ride bikes down to our homes in the valley.

Green Shadow,

Steinbeck is one of my favorite authors along with Bradbury and Dickens. I remember reading Of Mice and Men and thinking afterwords that I had read the best story ever written. Everything about it is perfect. I cannot say the same with The Grapes of Wrath though it started out beautiful and much like Dandelion Wine faded off a bit. And as Dickens goes, Great Expectations is his masterpiece I think. I remember reading it in the sixth grade and reading it again lately I swear it has gotten better.

All,

Some very good suggestions about the sources of Brabdury's prediction of youth violence. But I'd considered those already and still found them wanting. I mean, I have no doubt that there were fears in the 50s of disaffected youth turning to violence. But who could have predicted something like Columbine. It's when these kinds of things happen that I find Brabdury, in this instance, most chillingly prophetic. Sure, the the seashell earpieces predict the Sony Walkman, the pursuit of Faber predicts O.J.-like coverage. One can ask where did THAT come from, as well. But it's this prediction of kids killing kids that haunts me the most from this book.

Pete