Mr. Dark,

I've heard much about "Michael Moore is a Big. . ." that agrees with your take on the book. An off-putting title for a book that takes a serious look at Moore's pathology. Exerpts I've read seem right on target.

Others might find these links to be valuable: http://www.moorelies.com/, which is the website for the book you mentioned. And http://fahrenheit_fact.blogspot.com/, which is, in my opinion, an even-handed take-down of the "facts" in F-9/11. On this latter site are other links to other Moore sites, both pro and con, though the pro sites seemed to have grown weary with defending Moore. (That or their arguments have been proven wrong.)

At the risk of fanning the recently extinguished flames on this board, I invite my Moore-supporting friends on this site to review these sites and see if they're useful.

And, Mr. Dark, when you're through with the book, may I borrow it?

Best,

Pete

Pterran, I can't find the sites. Musta have been moved for lack of real content or the spread of lies or something (my assumption, of course).

Cheers, Translator

Translator,

Welcome back. You've been missed. No, really.

I can't make the links work either. You're right, probably dispensing too much truth. Let me see if I can get them to work.

For the book Mr. Dark mentions, try this: http://www.moorelies.com/

For a discussion of F-9/11 facts, with links both pro and con to Moore and his movie, try this: http://fahrenheit_fact.blogspot.com/

Best,

Pete

Update:

Just checked the above links and they're working as of 8:37 a.m. CST. Don't know why they didn't work in my first post. Try 'em now.

Pete

[This message has been edited by pterran (edited 07-22-2004).]

Hello Pterran,
Thanks for the welcome back; I had a mini vacation. The sites are not working right now (1:00 pm), but I did go to the second set you posted. Here is an excerpt:

"Moore groups the Iraq/Al Qaeda connection under the word "falsehoods". But there is a well-documented Iraq/Al Qaeda connection.


Dave Kopel writes:

...consider the facts presented in Stephen F. Hayes's book,
The Connection : How al Qaeda's Collaboration with Saddam Hussein Has
Endangered America (N.Y.: HarperCollins, 2004). The first paragraph of..."

According to the author, there is a connection between AlQ and Iraq. Now, it is a generally well accepted fact that no two things in this world are unconnected - that is, one particle one one side of the universe is connected to another by some causality chain - which means one can argue that there is a connection between absolutely anything. Moore was claiming that there was no connection between Iraq and AlQ of a workable sort, that is, of a sort that creates a "creative" symbiosis between the two. This was proven over and over again, most recently by the US 911 comission, and previously by Bush himself. The "myth debunker" from this website seems to have a differnt opinion, and brings in a book as proof. If I was a bit more ignorant of the issues, I might have believed him, but I am not. Thus, this myth-debunking looks to me very amateurish and not very well researched. If you wish, I can bring in other so called "myths" in to the picture and we can examine each of them one by one, to see whether they really are "Moore's lies", or rather an attempt to misconstrue what Moore meant.

Cheers, Translator

Translator,

Thanks but no need. I offered these sites for those wishing to find further, in-depth discussions about Moore's movie. It's important to note that these sites refer to Moore's deceptions. Some may be outright lies but the 36 or so listed at the Fahrenheit Fact site and the 50+ listed on Dave Kopel's site ought to give you plenty to chew on. Because you disagree with the conclusion of one, or several, points doesn't mean they're poorly researched or amateurish. I'm not recommending these sites, Moore's film, or even your statements as the final word on any of this. I recommend a variety of information sources before coming to a conclusion.

Best,

Pete

Translator,

I checked the links again and as of 7:22 CST, they're working. I have no explanation why they won't work for you.

I've also taken another look at Kopel's point about an Al-Q and Iraq connection and I think you might've been a little misleading in your own post. You left out any reference to Kopel's long litany of connections between Al-Q and Iraq throughout the 90s. Are you flatly denying all of Kopel's points? No, Iraq didn't pack the 9/11 planes with terrorists. Kopel doesn't claim this and neither does anyone quoted in the transcript of F-9/11. (I presume you have no quarrel with the accuracy of that exerpt.) But surely you'll agree the connection between Al-Q and Iraq was a wee bit more than a mere causal relationship that somehow links everything in the universe with everything else. Moore seems to be implying there was no connection at all.

Best,

Pete

[This message has been edited by pterran (edited 07-22-2004).]

They work now, thanks. As to the connection between Alq and Iraq - I still maintain that there was no proof found up to this point that shows they were connected in any deeper way than casual meetings that were inevitable. I furthermore maintain that there was more of a connection between just about every other country and AlQ than with Alq and Iraq, and that includes the US, Canada, or Mozambique. People move between countries, so meetings are sure to happen. I disagree with the author that those meetings had anything to do with what transpired on 911.
Your point that your sources or others mentioned here are not 100% accurate is well taken, and I agree with that. But I also thik that some sources, like the one you mentioned, are far less accurate than others. While they may have some good points, these points are hidden among blatant lies and faulty logical conclusions. I would normally post two counterbalancing websites of equal merit to the ones that were posted, but I don;t think I should be visiting the Marxist-Lenninist "Free Mumia Abu Jamal and legalize heroin" sites that would bring in 50 off-the-wall points about Bush et al.

Cheers, Translator

try www.bowlingfortruth.com

It uncovers the lies in Bowling for Columbine and Fahrentheit 911

When Michael Moore finally overbloats on his awards...and lays dead and drifting away in the sordid spotlight of American celebrity...DANDELION WINE will still be picked up, read, cherished and influential for new generations.

When all the remakes of bad movies continue to discontinue their vast array of blockbustering attempts at storytelling...old, faded, paperback editions of THE OCTOBER COUNTRY...will grow new voices, colors, souls and hopes of storytelling...no matter where they're born in.

Bradbury's work will live on in the blank pages of new writers with new visions, fueling them with the fires of their own original tongues.

Bradbury's works are his loves, and they won't ever die or be burned off of bookshelves, or forgotten about. Because that's where his soul has always been...long before he ever earned a penny for filling up the blank page.

That's not being a hack.

That's being the real thing. A writer. A storyteller. the truth.

Nice post, Mark11

I agree, mark11. Bradbury will prevail. Even after he's long gone (perish the thought), both kids and adults all over the world will read and enjoy his books. There are whole generations that have not even been born yet that will grow to love him.

Many grow up missing out on a lot. Great things stare them right in the face and they never recognize it until they look back years later and think about how they would have done things differently. These hot shot show-offs may someday cool down long enough to come to their senses and think about the stupid things they have slammed against Bradbury. Others may never. To those, what a sad and wasted life.
And then there are those of us who appreciate Bradbury today and his worth as a person and the gift of his work he has given to generations to come.

quote:

Originally posted by mark11:
When Michael Moore finally overbloats on his awards...and lays dead and drifting away in the sordid spotlight of American celebrity...DANDELION WINE will still be picked up, read, cherished and influential for new generations.

When all the remakes of bad movies continue to discontinue their vast array of blockbustering attempts at storytelling...old, faded, paperback editions of THE OCTOBER COUNTRY...will grow new voices, colors, souls and hopes of storytelling...no matter where they're born in.

Bradbury's work will live on in the blank pages of new writers with new visions, fueling them with the fires of their own original tongues.

Bradbury's works are his loves, and they won't ever die or be burned off of bookshelves, or forgotten about. Because that's where his soul has always been...long before he ever earned a penny for filling up the blank page.

That's not being a hack.

That's being the real thing. A writer. A storyteller. the truth.

Well said, and so, so true.

*sigh*
raybradburyissenile, really don't you have anything better to do with your time than make a total idiot out of yourself? I mean, really, come on...

Actually, given the dates of those posts, I think this guy was one of those dweebs who finds a forum and just jumps in and snipes, then runs away.

Yes, one guy who posted only twice spawned a thread that ran, what? 50 or 60 posts?