Goodwill Thrift Stores are the greatest. Here in Sacramento I pay $1.00 PB and $2.00 HB and their shelves are organized by genre, which is something rather rare for thrift stores. I found FROM THE DUST RETURNED in perfect condition for $1.00. Even though it was a trade paperback they gave it to me for mass-market PB price.

We have Goodwill stores here, also. I make donations about twice a year, whenever I'm cleaning closets, and I also buy their books, especially for my classroom. I've also had good luck there finding cd's, video tapes and cassette tapes for fifty cents to a dollar. I always love a bargain!

I still invite others here to a game of chess. You can only get better.
Cheers, Translator

"Funny, isn�t it, how in this age of multi-culturalism and sensitivity, Christians are usually excluded from this simple courtesy."

Pterran, it's so true. Perhaps not in reference to this thread, which I think is a very good one, and thought provoking, but in the sense of the modern world, you really do have a point. What's funny is that the people who try to get God out of the pledge of allegiance and such are never Muslims, Buddhists, or Hindus. Nope, they are almost always ex-Christians who have issues about their upbringings. Besides, if they were truly athiests, simple references to such a silly thing as "God" (who doesn't really exist) really wouldn't bother them, whould it?

Well, one could turn that agrument around a bit. If a person has found "The Way" and has been "Saved", by what ever religious system of beliefs they have come to accept, then why is it necessary to impose that person's beliefs on everybody else? Why not just be glad that you have gained the insight and have a special place in the eyes of your creator and let the rest of us find our truth on our own? This nation was founded by free thinking people who had fled the oppressive beliefs of others in Europe and chose to come to the new land in the hopes of letting each find "God" in their own way, including a choice not to believe, as equal to any other. I guess it is just human nature to try and impose what one has come to believe as the "Truth" on our fellows. How much easier it all would be if we would just take care of our own beliefs and let others do the same. Thus, the reason for separation of church and state, to provide a means for the freedom to search for our individual truth, without having to feel oppressed by the beliefs of others.

groon. I noticed the more people are carnal, the less they believe in a god of any kind. Why is that? Oh, I know the devil believes in God, but lots of people don't believe in the devil either. But then I read where Hugh Hefner says he believes in a god. And that he thinks of himself as a very moral person. And you can't get more carnal than Hugh Hefner. That man is deceived beyond the range of rational imagination. So, the whole gamut is topsy turvy. I would venture to say that things are so bewildering nowadays it's far easier to not believe than to believe. But then, maybe it was like that 500 years ago, and 1000 years ago as well. I'm more inclined to believe that things will get far worse, more deceptive within advancing societies. Every generation has its share of deception thruout history. And the entire Bible boils down to a one verse, really. Scripture writes in one sentence, that if Christ didn't come back from the dead, the Bible is a farce and all are vastly deceived.
Ex-Christians, the kind that met God, are among the most dangerous people in the world, because they distort what they know to their own advantage. And what they know others only throw a passing glance of disbelief. No one says you can't twist God's grace into something personally advantageous. Witches do it. Devil worshippers do it. It's all real. But it's safer to say none of it is so and believe only in yourself and what you think exists.

Oh, boy. Religious discussions. A sure-fire thread extender. Shall we continue. . .?

Patrask,

1.) Permitting me to mention God or my faith or even to pray, in a publicly-sponsored setting, is not forcing my beliefs on others. Groon is right; since atheists believe in no God, the mention of God should be no more offensive to them than mentioning any other mythical creatures, such as fairies or unicorns. A moment of silent prayer in school is forcing a belief on others? How so? Because it it makes others feel, um, awkward? Okay. Life is full of awkward moments. Feelings of awkwardness is not coercion.

2. One of the basic tenets of Christianity, and some other religions, is choice. No Christian imposes their truth on others, though, I'll admit, it might seem that way at times. Either you accept the truth of Christ or you don't. No one lops off your head if you fail to measure up.

3. By restricting the expression of faith by the faithful simply to protect the right of the unfaithful not to (Yeah, that sentence makes sense. Sort of.) is not, in fact, a seperation of church and state; it's the state's implied approval of one faith over another.

Best,

Pete

Are we at it again? This is getting tiresome.

1. No one is, or ever has been, prevented from praying to their God in a public setting, in a school or other public formum - in private.
2. There is a difference between permitting such, and requiring such, by including same in an agenda. That gives the sponsoring body at least the appearance of sanction over what is taking place. Can I pray to my God - by, say, reciting the Lord's Prayer at the beginning of the school day in the classroom - yes - silently, to my self. If this is an agenda item, time formally set aside for prayer, someone has been offended. Those who do not choose to believe in God and therefore do not pray are set aside during the alloted time and are made to feel uncomfortable for their belief. It is simply not necessary and is the reason for separation of church and state. Anyone can pray to any god in any house of worship at any time - on their own time. I do not see why those who have found a "Calling" must continuously foster their beliefs, while noble and good as they are for the believer, on others, who may have found a different calling. It is important that our differences not become as wedges to separate us from each other in times of doing public business. We must have a common respect for each other's beliefs and provide the freedom to have those beliefs. Since we can never totally agree on our beliefs, leave them off the official public agendas and support them wholehartedly in our chosen houses of worship. What a simple concept.

Public expression of belief should never be a mandatory or "default" thing, no matter what religion and what country it is. Many of you here are against the deeply islamic countries here, yet when talk comes around to the state-mandated christian pledge found in the US, you defend it. Why? Where is the logic?

By the way, patrask, your country was founded by people who thought Britain was too liberal for their tastes (the puritans).
Cheers, Translator

"The most important single thing we had to pound into ourselves is that we were not important, we mustn't be pedants; we were not to feel superior to anyone else in the world."

I love Ray for expressing such beautiful insights as this one! This may be utopian thinking, but I'm convinced if everyone stuck to this attitude concerning one's religious beliefs, it would make a pretty good start.

And then, "... you can't MAKE people listen. They have to come 'round in their own time."

Gothic. You are the one that proves tiresome. Tiresome people don't like any talk about religion. It bothers their souls. It troubles their minds and they find it boring. You are not exactly an imbecile, for I've met imbeciles that find God important. If it were not for this unexplained love for scripture, they would only be seen as that 8 year old that cannot find their way to become 9 and beyond. I can't say you are dumb. But when you say that a discussion of God, a topic permeated into the culture of every society on this planet (and beyond, if you read Bradbury's take on it) is tiresome, what does that really make you?

"it's far easier to not believe than to believe"

libRArY, it's very true.

I guess the thing that bugs me is that people hear the word "God" and because it's an english word, everybody assumes that it is referring only to the Christian God, and therefore assumes that the Father, Son, &/or Holy Ghost are being forced upon the public. It really is a generic word, and therefore symbolizes whatever it is that one believes in. Just fill in the blank with your own God (One nation under Zeus...)

As for separation of Church and State, I agree, but at least do it right! I want the post office open on Sundays! That's right, seven days a week. Oh, and forget about giving Government employees any kind of Christmas leave, bonuses, or other special treatment. Let's do this RIGHT!

Well, the Post Office has allowed for some representation of other faiths on stamps. Besides the secular "Christmas" and "Season's" stamps and the religious "Madonna" stamps, there have been stamps for Hannukah, Eid, and Kwanzaa. I don't see one yet giving the Satanists equal time, though.

As for expressing a belief in God/Christ/etc. through testimony and prayer, I'm of the opinion that rights which remain unexercized may be lost. Ray says it's possible to burn books without ever lighting a match by simply getting people to NOT read them!

Ah, the good old days when people thought the earth was flat . . . Who knows, they may be right after all.