quote:

Originally posted by Nard Kordell:
But Ray does NOT have a saving knowledge of Christ.

Obviously, like me, Ray does not profess a belief in "Atonement Theology".

We don't believe humankind is in need of being saved - except from ourselves!

However, we do consider ourselves to be "Liberal Christians", and look at those far-right, conservative Christians with as much head-shaking wonder as they apparently do us.

It is coming ... in five days!

No, not the end of the world, the end of the beginning of the world:

http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

Doug Spaulding~ This one is for YOU!
It's a passage from 2 Timothy, Chapter 4.

"And so I solemnly urge you before God and before Christ Jesus--who will someday judge the living and the dead when he appears to set up his Kingdom: Preach the word of God. Be persistent, whether the time is favorable or not. Patiently correct, rebuke, and encourage your people with good teaching.
"For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to right teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever they want to hear. They will reject the truth and follow strange myths."

Doug, what you are claiming is NOT in scripture. You have analyzed everything into oblivion. Scripture didn't say you must be like a child to enter the kingdom of heaven for nothing.
Have you forgotten that this whole world is fallen? That it has been given to Satan to do with what he wants, and Jesus provides an escape from even our broken natures? Now you can cross all that out of your Bible. On second thought, it sounds like you already did.

_____________

~ALSO~! On another important note, Ray is not sounding well this weekend. Hope he has the best care available to get him thru this week.

_________________________________

quote:

Originally posted by patrask:
It is coming ... in five days!

No, not the end of the world, the end of the beginning of the world:

http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

Oh, patrask, not that Zeitgeist rubbish!

I do hope Ray improves quickly.

Nico et el:

Give a look at the website below. This is becoming a genuine movement, world wide. March 15 is Z Day in the world. The truth will set you free, and worry you to death at the same time.

http://zeitgeistmovie.com/zday.htm

Patrask, most of the things mentioned in Zeitgeist have been disproven, or have failed to be proven with any evidence.

I guess the makers of Zeitgeist want you to take it on faith. Ironic, no?

I haven't seen the film, but my understanding of it is they don't want you to take the movie as truth. They are merely encouraging us to find the truth out for ourselves, and wake up to what has been happening for nearly a hundred years!

quote:

Originally posted by Doug Spaulding:
I haven't seen the film, but my understanding of it is they don't want you to take the movie as truth. They are merely encouraging us to find the truth out for ourselves, and wake up to what has been happening for nearly a hundred years!

They are not, Doug. It's pure "believe this" indoctrination. Telling people they should believe something and then tacking on "oh but think for yourself" on the end of the movie doesn't really cut it.

1. They assert that Jesus never existed and was based on older pagan deities.

2. That the USA and George Bush caused 9/11.

3. They assert that a secret alien sun-worshipping cult has ruled the world since the dawn of time.

4. They assert that the 16th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States is a myth.

No offense to any believers, but after seeing the facts I don't buy these assertions. Even if the documentary was designed to get people thinking, it didn't work. almost all of the people I've talked to take everything presented in the movie as 100% fact.

Well, all that does fit the Zeitgeist!
Folks used to know what that means; it's the "Spirit Of The Times", one assessment of which would certainly be the "everything that's wrong or that I don't like or understand is due to a conspiracy" belief that's so prevalent. It is much easier than real thinking, or taking responsibility anyway.

Folks, sorry I'm late in getting back to the discussion.

Yes, Carl Sagan was the guy I was thinking of. Ray's "theology" that Nard paraphrased sounded to me just like something Carl Sagan might say.

Was this the thread that mentioned Thomas Jefferson did a study about the teachings of Jesus Christ? Apparently TJ tried to study the teachings in all 4 gospels and write them down in his own "Jefferson Bible." I had no idea that Jefferson ever did this and I had no idea that this "Jefferson Bible" was handed out to new members of congress. The more I learn about historical figures like Jefferson and Lincoln, the more remarkable I find them to be....These men were great thinkers, and learners....way beyond what I consider myself to be. Makes me think that they were put in place by God in some special way to contribute to the greater good of society. Kinda like Ray, I guess.

Well, did you take the time to expand your horizons and actually watch Zeitgeist, The Movie? I would advise one to watch it at least twice, to get the message firmly understood against your current frame of reference.

There have been many who have questioned the comfortable belief systems of their times. Some were rewarded with torture, and extreme punishments and disgraced for even thinking that the official canon might be incorrect.

We have the opportunity to research and judge for ourselves what is true or not. If you don't take the risk then you are guilty of lack of courage, and do a disservice to the memory of those who have paid the ultimate price to win for you the freedom to make up your own minds.

If The Bible is your only source of Truth, and is found to be somewhat wanting when looking for other supporting texts of a contemporary nature, then the only truth you will get is what you deserve, one size fits all, no need to look into details, there are many explanations for why these things are the way they are presented in the Good Book, even if the Gospels contradict each other, they must still be the Truth, eh?

We live in a great time of information freedom and explosion, when ideas can be critized and shown to be less than they might appear to be in terms of validity. Does that lessen the power of God? I don't think so. Since we pretty much all agree that we have a maker, a universal mind behind what we experience as the world, then what capabilities we possess and can acquire and then apply toward furthering our understanding of Truth, is a God-given talent, and should be exercised to its fullest in the eternal search for the Truth.

The Catholic (universal)Church controlled the Western world for many years and suppressed all other points of view with a goal of world domination, one size WILL fit all, or else. The Moslem world is currently in the same state of attempting to spread their Truth over all human kind at the expense of even killing those who refuse to accept their story.

This country is the result of men who fought against that controlling dogma and set up a government free from the control of religion, any religion, while allowing those who wish to believe in any religion the right to practice their beliefs in private, without the possibility of becoming sanctioned by official government support. I feel privileged to have lived in this country and to have enjoyed the right to question everything and anything without fear of repression or a slow and terrible death in the name of the God that is driving the hands that turns the spit upon which I could be emboweled and roasted alive for my questioning.

Take a chance, the truth will set you free.
Caution, it is REALLY hard work not to buy into the current dogma from any source, and will cost you many long nights of some discomfort. It will be worth the pain, when you can see that you are no longer a sheep in a flock, but can stand on your own and realize that not all that glitters if actually Gold. For some, this discomfort will be too much. The Meek will inherit the Earth. The questioning should continue to do so, eternally.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: patrask,

patrask!

"You must be like a child to enter the kingdom of heaven!"
-Jesus Christ-

You sound all too grown up!

The gospels were written by people with first-hand experience with Jesus. They ate with him, they spent days, weeks and months with Him, and, like his brother James, spent a lifetime.

Scripture is all about Pride, and free-will that went astray and turned in on itself. The way for those that went astray to have their free will restored is to be given back their original free-will. We were originally made in the image of God. It takes God to give it back. By accepting Christ, you are invaded by Jesus and your mind and soul are thus restored to the original condition of free-will. Because that's what Jesus is: God!

It's a life long struggle. Pride loves the spotlight.

Patrask, are you saying that we should watch Zeitgeist because it will "open our minds"? How, by presenting outlandish, unbacked theories? I could do an internet search of "crazy theories" and it would open my mind just as much, would it not?

Does anyone else notice that this stuff resurges around Easter every year?

If I had the time to do do the research, I'd do a timetable of the dates of the release and hyping of these movies and books, etc. and compare them with the dates of Easter. Of course, this may simmer down by the time Orthodox Pascha arrives on April 27.

Nearly 2000 years ago, Someone rose from the dead and everyone is still figuring out a way to deal with that.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil Knox:
The gospels were written by people with first-hand experience with Jesus. They ate with him, they spent days, weeks and months with Him...

Not so. The Gospels were written decades after Jesus. They were stories handed down...and down...and down.

As far as your understanding of the Bible goes, I have two words for you: haggadic midrash.

If someone tells me they don't know what midrash means, then I know that they have no idea how to even begin to read the Bible.

Good luck!