hey, figured id add my two cents on this subject.

The person who is being investigated does not need to be accused of anything, or be told for what reason they are being investigated for.

i don't know if im putting it exactly right but from what ive read, and thought over it comes to this,

The patriot act is a violation of due process.
the users of this act do not need to explain why they are looking up your records, the librarians cannot tell you it is being done, and in no way is this going to "stop terrorism".

i mean whats more scary then someone who doesn't have to answer to any authority look into your private life?

if it was to stop terrorism, or enforce order then the very people using it should explain what they are doing and why. they can get a secret writ from a judge, look into anyone them deem a suspect and never explain why.

i mean, sure you could say the suspect is a terroist, but judging by the current trend, why stop there?
how about political activists?.

afterall, things are more and more resembling
F451 everyday.

we are not the "land of the free" , or most free country in the world. there is freedom, but it is every day being erased.

on the list of country's in the world with freedom of press((ie,with number one being the country with most freedom of press)),

the united states comes in 17th.
not too mention the want to cut funding from public televison,and radio.

i can supply links in a post, ill put up tomorrow. that way i can show some info, about what i speak.lol.

this is a good country, but the saddest thing is, it could be a great one.

quote:

mean whats more scary then someone who doesn't have to answer to any authority look into your private life?

Insurance companies, police departments, and credit bureaus have been doing this for many years now...

I would be interested in seeing the list of seventeen other countries that are more free than the US. This is not the first time in the US that freedoms have been altered during time of war. WW2 was much worse. The press was restricted much more during the Second World War, in addition we locked up thousands of innocent Japanese people in internment camps. Anyone who worked in military factories or on gov't projects were under strict security and serious background checks, with the threat of prison hanging over them for speaking about their work.
Remember McCarthyism and the Rosenbergs?
You have to take things in perspective. No one likes the Patriot Act, but it has to be renewed from time to time, and eventually I think it will NOT be renewed.
Have faith, things are not perfect, but we are not living yet in Oceania and I don't know anyone named Winston Smith, or Julia...

Talking of surveillance, I wonder if 'Big Sister' (aka Dandelion) is watching and still has any power over the posts on the 'Old Board'. Some weird stuff showing up there. Maybe they'll just go away...

Never fear.

Can someone tell me how to get back to the old board? I deleted it from my favorites list when the new one started, but I'd love to go back and see what's brewing.

Skipper,
this seems to work:
http://www.raybradbury.com/ubbcgi/Ultimate.cgi?action=intro&BypassCookie=true

Thank you, Braling. I just went over there for a few minutes. It looks like I've got lots to catch up on, although it's very eerie over there, like we're in a parallel universe or an alternate reality.

Braling II
lmskipper

Oh! Just great! Now everyone is going to know where some of us have been hiding. Is there NO MORE PRIVACY ANYWHERE???

Oops, would you believe? That was Braling I who posted that while I was in my box in the cellar...

How many have actually read the Patriot Act? I have read through it twice (arguments about it in my philosophy classes) and it mostly deals with communications between governmental agencies and banking/laundering issues. I am on the City's Library Advisory Board, and we are not seeing a mad rush of FBI troops coming in an violating persons' privacy rights. Implementation of the provisions of these acts are subject to judicial review (in most cases, PRIOR judicial review--just like a search warrant) so the claim in a post above that there is no accountability is false on it's face. Judicial review does not represent no accountability. These investigators are not given free reign to violate American's rights. They must convince a judge that there is a reason to for the investigations.

I am a fan of privacy rights and consider them sacred and vital to any free society. But law enforcement has NOT been given a blank check here--contrary to some claims. There are restrictions in place, judicial review, and a fairly public venting of the provisions of the Act. Anyone can read the full text of the Act.

Yeah...hype and more hype. People worry too much sometimes. I don't see any machine-gun toting guards at checkpoints between the states, lately...do you?

You can still get in your car and drive wherever you want, you can go to the mountains and play and fish and hike unobstructed, and you can vote and participate. Appreciate these things and many more that mean you live in America.

The U.S.= Not perfect, but not bad...

Mr. Dark,

Thanks. Leave it to you to bring some sanity to this argument. Imagine - actually reading the Act before forming an opinion.

Best,

Pete

okay..so im the only one freaked out about a law, in where someone can look up what you've read, and never explain why.

no offense, but

let me make this clearer, as i didn't before.
it is not their ability to see what ive read, or done, it is the fact they do not have to explain what they've done. or why they have done it. to anyone. sounds too much like secret police to me. so much for a goverment, "for the people, by the people".

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=8247
2003 results of freedom of press ranking.

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=10003&var_re...che=us+press+ranking



http://www.freedomhouse.org/research/pressurvey.htm
((this link gives you a pdf to read, it puts us ahead of the 2003 reading by reporters without borders, we are now at number 17.))

http://www.freedomhouse.org/media/pressrel/042705.htm
((press release, an online article for info)

http://newstandardnews.net/content/?action=show_item&itemid=1776

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0422,hentoff,53938,6.html

http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Surveillance/Terrorism/20011...patriot_analysis.php

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act


okay so im not aiming to make anyone enraged, just deliver the facts, and opinions. mostly facts, although i agree that some acts within the bill are very useful; for the most part it is a very scary thing.

no i do not think we will see gun toting military types at every doorstep; but as everyone knows progress takes time.

please, do not let this bill pass; it takes time for horrible things to happen. the theft of our freedoms is happening gradually, and it may not seem that way now but future generations will be know. terrorism is a horrible thing, yes, but so is fear and paranoia.
yes i think one should vote, and i do.

and if it is not a blank check then do something radical, like tell the person whose privacy your violating; why you are doing so.

judical review means nothing to me. that still doesn't comfort me from thinking that at this rate, we might as well sign over our rights and save them the time...

there are those voteing against this, senators and citizens..and i hope it does not pass. or at least, be held accountable to the people; not a secret court.


credit companies and insurance companies aren't looking into my library records to see if im reading "suspicous" material. i mean whose the enemy, terrorism or someone who has a diffrent opinion? i don't care what happened during ww2, as far as freedom restriction. after all that was long ago, this is 2005; not then. our country is supposed to represent freedom, not paranoid goverment.

in this aspect the terrorist have won.
they wanted to strike fear and disorder into you way of life. they have won, our goverment is now violating our right to privacy.

the us=could use lots of improvement.

just my opinion.. i hope i turn out wrong.

((oops let me clarify))

the us=good country= that could be great, with lots of improvement..))

i love this country, which is what makes this whole thing like a slap in the face to me.

((oh yeah excuse the typos, really tired from work,lol))