I don't recall saying I'd want to be in hell; that's the LAST place I want to end up!

And I understand perfectly, the concept of separation of church and state; I do think people have gone a bit ridiculous, with wanting ALL references to God taken out of public places (which begs the question, what would witnesses swear on when on the stand in court? hmmmmm). This country WAS founded by people who originally left England so that they could worship without persecution.

I have never claimed to be a great Christian, I just do the best I can. (And I believe that hell is a place that's not all fire and brimstone, but a place where there is the absence of God and no hope of salvation.) And that's all I have to say on the subject of religion because that is one of those topics (along with politics) where I've learned to agree to disagree.

A coupla thought-provoking epigrams:

The gates of Hell are locked from the inside.

It was the Church AND the state that crucified Christ.

Braling II

Hmm! Scripture claims the Father... found it pleasing to crush his Son.

Pleasing because the Son submitted to the rescue...

Son submitted because he loved his father...and was sustained by the Father
and for the joy that was set before him.

______

On the 'practical' level, it was a Jewish problem within the Jewish culture. Jesus was a Rabbi and Jewish. If you recall, Rome wanted to stay out of a rukus that was amongst the Jews themselves...
_______________________________________

KORBY: Sorry: Thought you agreed with the Trent Raznor quote you wrote.

If God is every God thing you can imagine, all the grand character found in people, the wonder of the mind, etc etc... if God pulls out, if He withdarws his love, Himself, how can you imagine how that would be like?

quote:

Originally posted by Nard Kordell:If God is every God thing you can imagine, all the grand character found in people, the wonder of the mind, etc etc... if God pulls out, if He withdarws his love, Himself, how can you imagine how that would be like?[/B]

It would be Hell.

Nard,
Told you they were thought-provoking!
By the by, I agree with your replies.
Thank God for the ressurection!
In the Orthodox Church, at Pascha (Easter) we sing, "Christ is risen from the dead trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life!" This is sung in many languages.

"Hell is only a word. The reality is much, much worse." Nard: I respect your beliefs, but as someone who abdicated God a long time ago (you should see some of the havoc inflicted on Belgian society by catholicism - we all bear the scars for life), I can only say: goodbye and good riddance.

Gothic,

Though I�m a Christian, I am a Protestant and I neither condemn nor applaud Catholicism. If it is as you say in Belgium, it is, indeed, tragic what the Catholic Church has done to your society. Perhaps you can enlighten us with examples. However, one shouldn�t equate what a Church does with religion, if that makes sense. That is to say, please don�t let the actions of the Church give you permission to �abdicate� God. God is available to you at any time you choose.

Groon,

I�m not sure if this is the proper forum for me to go on about gay marriage but I had a problem with one of your arguments. Let�s say the child you mention is born to a heterosexual couple but his father dies. His mother never re-marries and he�s raised by her with the help of numerous female relatives. I don�t agree with the outcome of your scenario but, by your reasoning, this would mean this mother should have no right to raise her child, unless she married again or otherwise provided a suitable male role model. Do we really want the state to interfere in this kind of thing?

Please tell me where I went wrong in my analysis.

Best,

Pete

Groon,

"Nard,
Just out of curiosity, what is the difference between adultery and fornication? Thanks."
----Good question - dict is needed.

"As for gay marriage, I oppose it for a couple reasons. One is that homosexuality is a mutation of nature. While it is wrong to persecute homosexuals, it is not correct to celebrate, applaud, and encourage their malfunction."
----1) That is a false claim. There is plenty of homosexual action going on between various animals in nature. Witness mokeys, dogs, pigs, etc. 2) Mutation happens to be a very natural thing. In fact, you are here because of mutation, and so is every other living thing on this earth. Mutation is not a malfunction, it is life in its purest form.

The second reason is the main one that forms my opinion. If gay marriage is allowed, then it will be allowed for homosexual couples to raise children. This presents a major problem in that the children will receive a warped view of relationships in life.

Example: A young boy is raised by his two mothers. Perhaps he has an older sister or two, just by chance. He goes to elementary school and up until high school, has only female teachers. The only male teachers he has are P.E. coaches, who dislike him because he doesn't happen to be athletic. What's wrong? He has no positive male role models in his life! This is a problem because, in his world, women have all of the authority and power over him. He does not see the delicate balance of cooperation between men and women which is so necessary for healthy development and, feeling powerless, begins to resent women. How can he get control in his own life?
Perhaps by the time he's in his 20s he may realize where his problems came from. By that time, hopefully he has not raped or murdered too many women in his quest for control."
----Pterran's counterexample was excellent. How will you answer it?

Cheers, Translator

"This country WAS founded by people who originally left England so that they could worship without persecution"

And their right to worship w/o persecution has not been infringed upon. The state, however, has refused to support the church, but it has not in any way made a motion to abridge the right to free choice in religion.

Translator: This WOULD be a good time to go to a dictionary. My own traditional view has been that:

Adultery is sexual intercourse that violates marital covenants.

Fornication is sexual intercourse that does not violate married couples (in other words, the participants are unmarried to anyone).

But, as I say, that's not dictionary, I'm just replying here.

Mr. Dark got it right with those two definitions....

Gothic:

I was raised a Catholic, and then left the church. Recently, happened to work with a Lithuanian newspaper that was printed by a Catholic organization. And I learned a few things I never knew about the teaching of the Catholic Church:
1) The Bible is not the final authority
2) Church tradition and the Bible go hand in hand
3) Catholics really do not know if they are going to heaven, because that would be presuming upon God's goodness.

Man starts putting his two cents in and veers away from the written word of God you get all sorts of bumps in the road of history. Some really nasty.

But there are some really devout believers in the Catholic Church, and they feel they need to be there for one reason or another...

But all this is all another subject I DO NOT want to stray into. Thank you, anyway!

I'm old enough to know the subject is a tacky one. I have found that basically those who WANT to 'see', do see God everywhere, whereas those who DON'T, do not. It's as simple as that. I used to be a lot less forgiving (a significant lapse, that word!) in the company of devout believers, but of late I've come to realize some of these people definitely mean well - even if they're misguided.
The evolution of human thought encompasses three stages - magic, religion and science. We want to move forward.

Gothic:

I see your point. The desire to look for God is put there by God. Scripture makes it clear we are too dumb to look for God on our own. You can't put in what God left out.

Then again if you die as an unbeliever, you don't go to heaven . . . So it's up to God to make sure that you and everybody else has the faith. If he cannot accomplish that, what does that make him?

Groon,

Good response. Always a pleasure exchanging opinions on this site.

Best,

Pete