The Viet Nam vets in the long term really had nothing to accomplish. They where there because of misguided notions—BUT THEY DID GO IN HARMS WAY! The people who accomplished much and deserve the greatest respect are Ray’s generation. They saved western civilization. And there are those today, again in harms way, who need our support. Jayne, rest easy. As far as I’m concerned you’re okay. Dandelion, thanks for sticking up for us.

Two final thoughts:

“There never was a good war, or a bad peace.” – Benjamin Franklin

“Only the dead have seen the end of war.” –Socrates

I must agree with just about everything posted so far, Dandelion, Fanboy, and Chap, (is it ok if I call you Chap?) thank you for responding.

I think if there is anything left for me to say it would be to echo Chap's sentiments regarding our most recent veterans. My brother was part of what was called the "thunder run" the first charge into Bagdad, after the initial hostilities he spent another 2 years over there doing what our soldiers there are doing now.

This is my generation, and I have concerns. So many soldiers are coming back with problems like PTSD, night terrors, depression, ect.. I think we are seeing somthing different than before. From what I understand, from my brother, and friends that were there, the slaughter was unimaginable. Our effectiveness on the battle field at this point is truly astounding, it's unfortunate we don't have weapons of peace as powerful. It's unfortunate that any human being had to wittness what our young men have. It's unfortunate that our politians don't have the wisdom they do power.

I could go on forever, but lucky for you I'll stop here.

Remember to care of our boys when they come home huh?


Edited to add: P.S. Big fan of George Orwell Dadelion, thanks for the reference.
Jayne

quote:

Originally posted by biplane1:
O.K. I am at my home computer and here are two photos, one recent of me reading Ray's book and ten years ago with Ray at his home.

Too Cool!!
I'm temped to ask for YOUR autograph.
I'm pretty sure I could live the whole rest of my life and still be jelous. Thank you biplane for sharing those. If I get any of pics of note next weekend I will be sure to post 'em.

Jayne, that is very nice for you to say, especially after seeing what I look like! At least I hope you punched up my photos.

Fanboy, although because of my religious beliefs now I would not particpate in war, back then it was a year in my life. I enjoyed Viet Nam, it is a beautiful country and I enjoyed the people very much. The Vietnamese (language) that I learned I did so from the children. When you are an advisor, or at least it was so with me, you become very close to the Vietnamese. I had to rely on them for my life.

I, and an American sergeant, would be the only Americans among 150 Vietnamese on an operation.
We lived in a compound surrounded by the soldiers so I was never worried at night, except for incoming mortars. In fact the Purple Heart that I received was from an incoming mortar that landed in a courtyard of the Tactical Operations Center. I got pieces of schrapnel in my right cheek.

The thing that I found most frightening were reports of officers being "fragged." This was in all American units up north. I am sure that Chapter 31 may have heard of these incidents. I was an officer, but tried to be a decent one. Some that I met thought that they were God's gift to the Armed Forces and were real idiots. I could use another adjective but it wouldn't be appropriate on such a forum as this.

Dandelion brings up a very good point. I was not adversely affected by the war as some were.
But, as I mentioned to Chapter 31 in another post, the Viet Nam war where I was in the delta was a far different one from that of the American units in the north jungles. I never had nightmares although I saw my share of death.

Once I witnessed two young men shot in the back by a Cambodian soldier who was part of our Vietnames Unit. There were five of us Americans on that operation. A Vietnamese Outpost had been overrun by the Viet Cong and a number of soldiers had been killed. We found two young men, one with bullet wound in his finger and the other holding a pack that was identified as belonging to one of the slain soldiers.

They interrogated the two young men for hours in the hot Vietnamese sun and I though that they were going to being them back to the District Headquarters. But the Vietnamese Major shouted something in Vietnamese and the Cambodian jacked a round into his M-16 and fired one shot into the back on one and then fired a burst over the shoulder of the other. The young man flinched, then he was shot in the back. Both fell and the Cambodian emptied his 20-round magazine into both bodies.

We Americans laughed. But it was a nervous reaction. We had no idea that they were going to do this. None of us had ever seen anything like this before and our reaction, when I thought of it later, was improper, but like I said, it was a very nervous reaction.

Wow! That is the most that I have ever written about my experience over there some almost 40 years ago. Sorry if I got carried away.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: biplane1,

Of course I brought up the photos, and my statement stands. As of now my goal is to see Mr. Bradbury speak, I know that doesn't sound like much to some of you guys who have met him, but to me he is like a myth, or maybe somthing akin to the holy grail, like reading Poe and then finding out he is still alive.
I just want to share the same room with the man.

P.S. I work graveyard shift so have to go to bed now, don't think I didn't read the rest of your post. I hope to give it the attention it deserves a bit later.

Yours
Jayne

I want to make two points and then, hopefully, I can shut up on the subject of Viet Nam.

First, the film industry has given the Viet Nam vet a bad break. I won’t go into why this is but it is so. An example is the portrayal of drug use. For the most part, those people doing this work in South East Asia were clean and sober. Nothing less would be tolerated. The individuals around you had to be counted on. There are only two films that come close to the truth about war: “All Quiet On The Western Front” and most recently “The Great Raid”. And, though not about war itself, the film “A History of Violence” comes dangerously close.

Secondly, what biplane 1 describes is an extreme exception. I never once witnessed any such behavior. For the most part, the people you worked with were so disciplined that any such conduct could not have transpired. We were all acutely aware of certain national values and a code of military justice that was unwavering. Let me close with a quote from Benjamin Franklin:

“As many of your officers and people have lately escaped from English prisons either in Europe or America, you are to be particularly attentive to their conduct towards the prisoners which the fortune of war may throw into your hands, lest resentment of the more than barbarous usage by the English in many places towards the Americans should occasion a retaliation and an imitation of what ought rather to be detested and avoided for the sake of humanity and for the honor of our country.”

Further he instructs in regards to the burning of towns: “…give timely notice of your intention that sick and ancient persons, women and children, may be first removed.”

Thanks Chapter 31, for making clear that what I saw was an exception. As American advisors we would NEVER suggest or condone such an action. But we didn't speak the language to any great degree and the Vietnamese Major never gave us a hint as to what he planning on doing. And maybe that is why he didn't say anything to us, because he knew we would not agree with it. But this was Vietnames dealing with Vietnamese, albeit, Viet Cong Vietnamese. There were a few other incidents which were not nice, but again, it was Vietnamese doing bad things to other Vietnamese who were either Viet Cong ouright or were sympathizers.

Overall, and this may seem weird, but my experience in Viet Nam was a pleasant one. When I came back I would show slides that I had taken to Social Study and History classes in the local high school. I tried to show the people, the beautiful country and down play the sad part of the war. I have over a thousand slides sitting in my sister-in-law's basement up in Minnesota. I would like to get them someday and convert them to DVD as I believe there is techonology to do just that. Enough said.

I too relate the lighter side of the experience, and there are some very funny ones, but now, I bow to your wisdom and agree—enough said.

Enough said, indeed, but I was looking through some photos from that era and found this one. Please forgive me, all, for posting this photo, but it seems so surreal to me. This was a banquet for an American Lieutenant Colonel who was leaving for the states.

Note the aged, weathered French-built building behind us. It all seems so something or other as I cna't put my finger on it--surreal is the only thing I can think of. If you haven't figured it out, I am the gaunt looking one facing to my left, your right.

Viet_Nam-Banquet.jpg (49 Kb, 17 downloads)

Awesome! Thanks, all, for sharing!

biplane 1,
This photo wasn’t taken in the sophisticated surroundings like the table you found yourself at, Major, but it was a dark and stormy night.

viet_nam_usmc4.JPG (29 Kb, 15 downloads)

Thread drift can be an astounding thing. I also would like to thank Chap and biplane for sharing, and for teaching. To be honest it is not very often I get to learn somthing from the people who were there, I am grateful to you both.

Ok, little change of subject, I'm a math major, I know, I know, before you start throwing things at me, allow me to use my talents for your amusement. I will see if I can track down the information I need to figure how many words our creepy proliferist is pounding out.
I'll be back with the answer asap.

At your disposal (no not the one in the sink)
Jayne

Chapter 31, a neat photo, lean and mean, oh to be that thin again! But thanks for posting the photo. I never ran into any Marines where I was, and if you were referring to me as Major, I was a lowly First Lieutenant.

But, hey, the building you are standing in looks pretty darn nice. Was it built by Sea Bees?

And Jayne, don't get me started on the Math thing. My niece just sent me this deal where you say about many times out of then you think of chocolate in a day and add this number, substract this, multiply that by another and you come a three digit number: the first of which is the number of times you think about chocolate in a day and the next two are your age. How does that work. My wife said that it is simple math, a multiple of 9. Huh?

I misread what I thought was an oak leaf on your uniform, but well, an officer’s rank by any other name is still an officer and a gentleman. —Best

P.S. An external of the buildings.

viet_nam_usmc5.JPG (31 Kb, 6 downloads)

quote:

I will see if I can track down the information I need to figure how many words our creepy proliferist is pounding out.

Jayne, Curious, what does that mean?

I just went back a few pages and I think I get it now. Stephen King? Maybe I am a hat after all, a dunce cap.

Two other things, I just noticed Queen Latifa's new movie has a trolley in it, and it looks like a real trolley with electric wire attached.
The other is that Mugnaini book of art and graphics has many pictures not seen generally. Would anyone care to see a few, I could copy and post, just not sure of the interest involved. I'm seriously going to hate to return that to library. Interesting intro by Ray also.

Ironically Chapter, we saw History of Violence, I liked it but some parts are brutal and some of the scenarios for me were unbeleivable.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: rocket,