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Korby:

You understand, of course, it was the other way around before, this seperation of Church and state.

Even as recent as a half dozen decades ago, the government was NOT to interfere in the affairs of the church. There was a seperation of church and state, but now it has all turned out to be the other way around. Today in many public schools, a child cannot even bring a Bible to class. Christianity is banned as a subject in many schools. You can teach Islam, but not Christianity. Oh, there is a lot of freedom, but you can't put a Christmas crib across the street from City Hall in Fullerton, California, and lots of other cities. Many want the name changed from Christmas to Winter Festival. How did this all get turned on its ear? Well, changes little by little by judges who wanted to move things to their own non-God philosphy.
_______________________________
on your other note:

You wouldn't want to be in hell... because... there are no friends there.

There is only YOU!

But not what you think YOU...is...! Only the character of you and all its ramifications of a fallen creature. They are, for starters, the inability to be loved, the inability to care, the inability to know yourself, and at the same time, fully scorned and pitied by all that are outside of Hell. One of the torments is to see all that God would have given you, and all that would mean in the history of generations and life, but given all to someone else. Imagination cannot portray the picture. Dante's inferno give it no justice.

If the glory of what God has promised for his is beyond what man can imagine, actually it says...it hasnt even entered into his heart what God has prepared for those who love Him... then it hasn't entered in man's heart either what awaits in the opposite of peace and honor...

And about your reference to rules and regulations...it's not about rules and regulationsl. It's about a relationship you learn about each day, with the one that loves you before he even created the stars. He takes the fall for your mistakes. But he must be invited into your mind and heart to be your life. Otherwise, your living by rules and regulations on your own power, never measure up.

Like ''The Man'', Ray Bradbury's short story abhout a space ship full of men having just missed the visitation of jesus Christ on another planet. (Have you read it?) The space captain is always missing Christ on one planet after another, by hours, then mili-seconds, and even onto forveer, cannot ever meet Christ. But others, in the story, meet Christ, because they let him, his peace, his power, walk in their lives.
 
Posts: 2280 | Location: Laguna Woods, California | Registered: 28 June 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I don't recall saying I'd want to be in hell; that's the LAST place I want to end up!

And I understand perfectly, the concept of separation of church and state; I do think people have gone a bit ridiculous, with wanting ALL references to God taken out of public places (which begs the question, what would witnesses swear on when on the stand in court? hmmmmm). This country WAS founded by people who originally left England so that they could worship without persecution.

I have never claimed to be a great Christian, I just do the best I can. (And I believe that hell is a place that's not all fire and brimstone, but a place where there is the absence of God and no hope of salvation.) And that's all I have to say on the subject of religion because that is one of those topics (along with politics) where I've learned to agree to disagree.
 
Posts: 213 | Location: New Berlin, WI, USA | Registered: 21 June 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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A coupla thought-provoking epigrams:

The gates of Hell are locked from the inside.

It was the Church AND the state that crucified Christ.
 
Posts: 901 | Location: Box in Braling I's cellar | Registered: 02 July 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Braling II

Hmm! Scripture claims the Father... found it pleasing to crush his Son.

Pleasing because the Son submitted to the rescue...

Son submitted because he loved his father...and was sustained by the Father
and for the joy that was set before him.

______

On the 'practical' level, it was a Jewish problem within the Jewish culture. Jesus was a Rabbi and Jewish. If you recall, Rome wanted to stay out of a rukus that was amongst the Jews themselves...
_______________________________________

KORBY: Sorry: Thought you agreed with the Trent Raznor quote you wrote.

If God is every God thing you can imagine, all the grand character found in people, the wonder of the mind, etc etc... if God pulls out, if He withdarws his love, Himself, how can you imagine how that would be like?
 
Posts: 2280 | Location: Laguna Woods, California | Registered: 28 June 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Nard Kordell:If God is every God thing you can imagine, all the grand character found in people, the wonder of the mind, etc etc... if God pulls out, if He withdarws his love, Himself, how can you imagine how that would be like?[/B]


It would be Hell.
 
Posts: 213 | Location: New Berlin, WI, USA | Registered: 21 June 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Nard,
Told you they were thought-provoking!
By the by, I agree with your replies.
Thank God for the ressurection!
In the Orthodox Church, at Pascha (Easter) we sing, "Christ is risen from the dead trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life!" This is sung in many languages.
 
Posts: 901 | Location: Box in Braling I's cellar | Registered: 02 July 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Nard,
Just out of curiosity, what is the difference between adultery and fornication? Thanks.

As for gay marriage, I oppose it for a couple reasons. One is that homosexuality is a mutation of nature. While it is wrong to persecute homosexuals, it is not correct to celebrate, applaud, and encourage their malfunction.
The second reason is the main one that forms my opinion. If gay marriage is allowed, then it will be allowed for homosexual couples to raise children. This presents a major problem in that the children will receive a warped view of relationships in life.

Example: A young boy is raised by his two mothers. Perhaps he has an older sister or two, just by chance. He goes to elementary school and up until high school, has only female teachers. The only male teachers he has are P.E. coaches, who dislike him because he doesn't happen to be athletic. What's wrong? He has no positive male role models in his life! This is a problem because, in his world, women have all of the authority and power over him. He does not see the delicate balance of cooperation between men and women which is so necessary for healthy development and, feeling powerless, begins to resent women. How can he get control in his own life?

Perhaps by the time he's in his 20s he may realize where his problems came from. By that time, hopefully he has not raped or murdered too many women in his quest for control.
 
Posts: 411 | Location: Azusa, CA | Registered: 11 February 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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"Hell is only a word. The reality is much, much worse." Nard: I respect your beliefs, but as someone who abdicated God a long time ago (you should see some of the havoc inflicted on Belgian society by catholicism - we all bear the scars for life), I can only say: goodbye and good riddance.
 
Posts: 149 | Location: Ostend, Belgium | Registered: 11 July 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Gothic,

Though I�m a Christian, I am a Protestant and I neither condemn nor applaud Catholicism. If it is as you say in Belgium, it is, indeed, tragic what the Catholic Church has done to your society. Perhaps you can enlighten us with examples. However, one shouldn�t equate what a Church does with religion, if that makes sense. That is to say, please don�t let the actions of the Church give you permission to �abdicate� God. God is available to you at any time you choose.

Groon,

I�m not sure if this is the proper forum for me to go on about gay marriage but I had a problem with one of your arguments. Let�s say the child you mention is born to a heterosexual couple but his father dies. His mother never re-marries and he�s raised by her with the help of numerous female relatives. I don�t agree with the outcome of your scenario but, by your reasoning, this would mean this mother should have no right to raise her child, unless she married again or otherwise provided a suitable male role model. Do we really want the state to interfere in this kind of thing?

Please tell me where I went wrong in my analysis.

Best,

Pete
 
Posts: 547 | Location: Oklahoma City, OK | Registered: 30 April 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Groon,

"Nard,
Just out of curiosity, what is the difference between adultery and fornication? Thanks."
----Good question - dict is needed.

"As for gay marriage, I oppose it for a couple reasons. One is that homosexuality is a mutation of nature. While it is wrong to persecute homosexuals, it is not correct to celebrate, applaud, and encourage their malfunction."
----1) That is a false claim. There is plenty of homosexual action going on between various animals in nature. Witness mokeys, dogs, pigs, etc. 2) Mutation happens to be a very natural thing. In fact, you are here because of mutation, and so is every other living thing on this earth. Mutation is not a malfunction, it is life in its purest form.

The second reason is the main one that forms my opinion. If gay marriage is allowed, then it will be allowed for homosexual couples to raise children. This presents a major problem in that the children will receive a warped view of relationships in life.

Example: A young boy is raised by his two mothers. Perhaps he has an older sister or two, just by chance. He goes to elementary school and up until high school, has only female teachers. The only male teachers he has are P.E. coaches, who dislike him because he doesn't happen to be athletic. What's wrong? He has no positive male role models in his life! This is a problem because, in his world, women have all of the authority and power over him. He does not see the delicate balance of cooperation between men and women which is so necessary for healthy development and, feeling powerless, begins to resent women. How can he get control in his own life?
Perhaps by the time he's in his 20s he may realize where his problems came from. By that time, hopefully he has not raped or murdered too many women in his quest for control."
----Pterran's counterexample was excellent. How will you answer it?

Cheers, Translator


Lem Reader
 
Posts: 626 | Location: Maple, Ontario, Canada | Registered: 23 February 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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"This country WAS founded by people who originally left England so that they could worship without persecution"

And their right to worship w/o persecution has not been infringed upon. The state, however, has refused to support the church, but it has not in any way made a motion to abridge the right to free choice in religion.


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Posts: 99 | Location: LaPorte, Indiana, United States of America | Registered: 23 July 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Translator: This WOULD be a good time to go to a dictionary. My own traditional view has been that:

Adultery is sexual intercourse that violates marital covenants.

Fornication is sexual intercourse that does not violate married couples (in other words, the participants are unmarried to anyone).

But, as I say, that's not dictionary, I'm just replying here.
 
Posts: 1964 | Location: McKinney, Texas | Registered: 11 May 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Mr. Dark got it right with those two definitions....

Gothic:

I was raised a Catholic, and then left the church. Recently, happened to work with a Lithuanian newspaper that was printed by a Catholic organization. And I learned a few things I never knew about the teaching of the Catholic Church:
1) The Bible is not the final authority
2) Church tradition and the Bible go hand in hand
3) Catholics really do not know if they are going to heaven, because that would be presuming upon God's goodness.

Man starts putting his two cents in and veers away from the written word of God you get all sorts of bumps in the road of history. Some really nasty.

But there are some really devout believers in the Catholic Church, and they feel they need to be there for one reason or another...

But all this is all another subject I DO NOT want to stray into. Thank you, anyway!
 
Posts: 2280 | Location: Laguna Woods, California | Registered: 28 June 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I'm old enough to know the subject is a tacky one. I have found that basically those who WANT to 'see', do see God everywhere, whereas those who DON'T, do not. It's as simple as that. I used to be a lot less forgiving (a significant lapse, that word!) in the company of devout believers, but of late I've come to realize some of these people definitely mean well - even if they're misguided.
The evolution of human thought encompasses three stages - magic, religion and science. We want to move forward.
 
Posts: 149 | Location: Ostend, Belgium | Registered: 11 July 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Gothic:

I see your point. The desire to look for God is put there by God. Scripture makes it clear we are too dumb to look for God on our own. You can't put in what God left out.
 
Posts: 2280 | Location: Laguna Woods, California | Registered: 28 June 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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