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Originally posted by patrask:
God moves in mysterious ways and if we really believe that this country is being watched over, "Under God", then all things are possible.

There is now the beginning of a new CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT by those who have just been discriminated against by Christians who somehow feel threated by the acceptance of two PEOPLE formally acknowledging their relationship in a CIVIL ceremony. There, but for the grace of God, go I. This time I am taking a vocal stand on the matter to help in anyway that I can to change the minds of the prejudiced to realize that we are all God's children. Ray Bradbury was one of the first white writers to address the topic of race in his early stories, and came down on the side of anti-discrimination, by pointing to how it would feel if the shoe were on The Other Foot. This too will come to pass and another discrimination will then take its place for folks to argue about. When will we ever learn?

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Haste makes waste

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Originally posted by Doug Spaulding:
Then there's this article:

Not A Sin, Not A Sickness: What the Bible does & does not say:
HOMOSEXUALITY & THE CHURCH

How tragic it is that the Christian Church has excluded and persecuted people who are homosexual! (Just what Christian Church are we talking about here?)

Yet, lesbians and gay men facing hostile attitudes in society often are denied access to healthy relationships. Jesus Christ calls us to find ultimate meaning in life through a personal relationship with our Creator (Exactly what Creator is being referred to here?).

For many centuries, the Christian Church's attitude toward human sexuality was very negative: sex was for procreation, not for pleasure; and many expressions of heterosexuality, like homosexuality, were considered sinful Still is! And lust as the main ingredient in marriage is still considered not the best. Compassion and expression of Godly care and love remains strongest.) . Such tradition often continues to influence churches today. Bible believing churches, yep! Many teach that women should be subordinate to men, continue to permit forms of discrimination against peoples of color, and condemn homosexuals. What strange churches do you go to? They say that all homosexual acts are sinful, often referring to their interpretation of scripture. No need for interpretion. It's plain as can be, right along there with drunkedness, forrnication, adultery and several others.

Other churches today are influenced by a century of psychoanalytic thought promoted through a powerful minority in the field of medicine. They see homosexuality as some kind of sickness. Although this view has now been soundly discredited by the medical profession, some churches and clergy continue to be influenced by the idea. They say that homosexuals are "imperfect" and in need of "healing". [Love the sinner, not the sin, be you a porn addict, a thief because of a genetic bent inherited from a father, or etc.]]

The good news is that, since 1968, when Metropolitan Community Church was founded, [a Gay Church, by the way. Come to think of it, how come there arn't any Churches strictly for adulterers, or fornicators, or people with other persuasions?]the emergence of a strong lesbian and gay community, and the conclusions of new scientific studies on homosexuality have forced the Christian Church to reexamine these issues. A growing number of biblical and theological scholars now recognize that Scripture does not condemn loving, responsible homosexual relationships. The biggest piece of crap in this post perhaps. If this be true, then all other genetic persuasions MUST be accepted, including whatever you got out there! Therefore, gay men and lesbians should be accepted - just as they are - in Christian churches, and homosexual relationships should be celebrated and affirmed!

The Bible is a collection of writings which span more than a thousand years recounting the history of God's relationship with the Hebrew and Christian people. Boy, do you have you measurement of the span of time wrong It was written in several languages, embraces many literary forms, and reflects cultures very different from our own. These are important considerations for properly understanding the Bible in its context.

There are vast differences in doctrines between various Christian denominations, all of which use the same Bible. Such differences have led some Christians to claim that other Christians are not really Christians at all! Biblical interpretation and theology differ from church to church. Total nonsense. There is absolutely no difference in understanding the redemptive work of Christ. If so, it is plain and simple: heresy, a problem dating back 2,000 years to the time of Paul.

Biblical interpretation and theology also change from time to time. Approximately 150 years ago in the United States, some Christian teaching held that there was a two-fold moral order: black and white. Whites were thought to be superior to blacks, therefore blacks were to be subservient and slavery was an institution ordained by God. And many others did NOT hold that idea Clergy who supported such an abhorrent idea claimed the authority of the Bible. The conflict over slavery led to divisions which gave birth to some major Christian denominations. These same denominations, of course, do not support slavery today. Did the Bible change? No, their interpretation of the Bible changed. This would require several pages of writings. Otherwise you'd be left with a convoluted explanation making little sense.

What influences lead us to new ways of understanding Scripture? New scientific information, social changes, and personal experience are perhaps the greatest forces for change in the way we interpret the Bible and develop our beliefs. Scientific awareness of homosexual orientation did not exist until the nineteenth century.

Most Christian churches, including Metropolitan Community Church, believe the Bible was inspired by God and provides a key source of authority for the Christian faith. Therefore, what the Bible teaches on any subject, including sexuality, is of great significance. The problem, however, is that sometimes the Bible says very little about some subjects; and popular attitudes about those matters are determined much more by other sources, which are then read into the biblical statements. This has been particularly true of homosexuality. But fortunately, recent scholarship refutes many previous assumptions and conclusions. Nonsense. Plain nonsense. If you want to rewrite the Bible, that's your freedom to play Fahrenheit 451 with such passages as offend thee. People who don;t care much about the sin of pride can also strike out and re-interpret biblical passages referring or not referring to pride.

GENESIS 19:1-25

What was the sin of Sodom? Some "televangelists" carelessly proclaim that God destroyed the ancient cities of Sodom and Gomorrah because of "homosexuality". Although some theologians have equated the sin of Sodom with homosexuality, a careful look at Scripture corrects such ignorance.

Announcing judgment on these cities in Genesis 18, God sends two angels to Sodom, where Abraham's nephew Lot, persuades them to stay in his home. Genesis 19 records that "all the people from every quarter" surround Lot's house demanding the release of his visitors so "we might know them". The Hebrew word for "know" in this case, yadha, usually means "have thorough knowledge of". It could also express intent to examine the visitors' credentials, or on rare occasions the term implies sexual intercourse. If the latter was the author's intended meaning, it would have been a clear case of attempted gang rape. It was for sexual purposes!

Horrified at this gross violation of ancient hospitality rules, Lot attempts to protect the visitors by offering his two daughters to the angry crowd, a morally outrageous act by today's standards. The people of Sodom refuse, so the angels render them blind. Lot and his family are then rescued by the angels as the cities are destroyed.

Several observations are important. First the judgment on these cities for their wickedness had been announced prior to the alleged homosexual incident. Second, all of Sodom's people participated in the assault on Lot's house; in no culture has more than a small minority of the population been homosexual. Third, Lot's offer to release his daughters suggests he knew his neighbors to have heterosexual interests. Fourth, if the issue was sexual, why did God spare Lot, who immediately commits incest with his daughters? Most importantly, why do all the other passages from Scripture referring to this account fail to raise the issue of homosexuality?
What was the Sin of Sodom? Come on. Any Bible student worth any salt knows that the sin of Sodom was NOT homosexuality. It was not offering hospitality to strangers. Come on., That's first grade stuff.

Ezekiel 16:48-50 states it clearly: people of Sodom, like many people today, had abundance of material goods. But they failed to meet the needs of the poor, and they worshiped idols.

The sins of injustice and idolatry plague every generation. We stand under the same judgment if we create false gods or treat others with injustice.

_ I am out of time, right now. Will continue this later. But this whole article is just another excuse to permit someone in sin to live out their lifestyle in freedom, and in this case, the Church. we are ALL afflicted with some sort of heavy cross to bear, be it a need for multiple affairs, addiction to nude photos when you are 7 years old and beyond, always seeking your neighbor's wife, and she her neighbor's husband...the list is...endless. But we do not submit to these things, thru the power and Grace of God, and when we do, we have Jesus Christ's power to cover our mistakes by his taking upon Himself the consequences of our decisions, that is to say, the cross.
More later!


LEVITICUS 18:22 & 20:13

Christians today do not follow the rules and rituals described in Leviticus. But some ignore its definitions of their own "uncleanness" while quoting Leviticus to condemn "homosexuals". Such abuse of Scripture distorts the Old Testament meaning and denied a New Testament message.

"You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.". These words occur solely in the Holiness Code of Leviticus, a ritual manual for Israel's priests. Their meaning can only be fully appreciated in the historical and cultural context of the ancient Hebrew people. Israel, in a unique place as the chosen people of one God, was to avoid the practices of other peoples and gods.

Hebrew religion, characterized by the revelation of one God, stood in continuous tension with the religion of the surrounding Canaanites who worshiped the multiple gods of fertility cults. Canaanite idol worship, which featured female and male cult prostitution as noted in Deuteronomy 23:17, repeatedly compromised Israel's loyalty to God. The Hebrew word for a male cult prostitute, qadesh, is mistranslated "sodomite" in some versions of the Bible.

What is an "Abomination"?

An abomination is that which God found detestable because it was unclean, disloyal, or unjust. Several Hebrew words were so translated, and the one found in Leviticus, toevah, is usually associated with idolatry, as in Ezekiel, where it occurs numerous times. Given the strong association of toevah regarding male same-sex acts in Leviticus calls into question any conclusion that such condemnation also applies to loving, responsible homosexual relationships.

Rituals and rules found in the Old Testament were given to preserve the distinctive characteristics of the religion and culture of Israel. But as stated in Galatians 3:22-25, Christians are no longer bound by these Jewish laws. By faith we live in Jesus Christ, not in Leviticus. To be sure, ethical concerns apply to all cultures and peoples in every age. Such concerns were ultimately reflected by Jesus Christ, who said nothing about homosexuality, but a great deal about love, justice, mercy and faith.

Romans 1:24-27

Most New Testament books, including the four Gospels, are silent on same-sex acts, and Paul is the only author who makes any reference to the subject. The most negative statements by Paul regarding same-sex acts occurs in Romans 1:24-27 where, in the context of a larger argument on the need of all people for the gospel of Jesus Christ, certain homosexual behavior is given as an example of the "uncleanness" of idolatrous Gentiles.

Does this passage refer to all homosexual acts, or to certain homosexual behavior known to Paul's readers? Romans was written to Jewish and Gentile Christians in Rome, who would have been familiar with the infamous sexual excesses of their contemporaries, especially Roman emperors. They would also have been aware of tensions in the early Church regarding Gentiles and observance of the Jewish laws, as noted in Acts 15 and Paul's letter to the Galatians. Jewish laws in Leviticus mentioned male-sex acts in the context of idolatry.

What is "Natural"?

Significant to Paul's discussion is the fact that these "unclean" Gentiles exchanged that which was "natural" for them-physin, in the Greek text-for something "unnatural", para physin, to accept the Gentiles. "Unnatural" in these passages does not refer to violation of so-called laws of nature, but rather implies action contradicting one's own nature. In view of this, we should observe that it is "unnatural", paraphysin, for a person today with a lesbian or gay sexual orientation to attempt living a heterosexual lifestyle.

Romans 1:26 is the only statement in the Bible with a possible reference to lesbian behavior, although the specific intent of this verse is unclear. Some authors have seen in this passage a reference to women adopting a dominant role in heterosexual relationships. Given the repressive cultural expectations placed on women in Paul's time, such a meaning may be possible.

The homosexual practices cited in Romans 1:24-27 were believed to result from idolatry and are associated with some very serious offences as noted in Romans 1. Taken in this larger context, it should be obvious that such acts are significantly different from loving, responsible lesbian and gay relationships seen today.

1 CORINTHIANS 6:9 & 1 TIMOTHY 1:10

Any consideration of New Testament statements on same-sex acts must carefully view the social context of the Greco-Roman culture in which Paul ministered. Prostitution and pederasty (sexual relationships of adult men with boys) were the most commonly known male same-sex acts.

In 1 Corinthians 6:9, Paul condemns those who are "effeminate" and "abusers of themselves with man-kind", as translated in the King James version. Unfortunately, some newer translations are worse, rendering these words "homosexuals". Recent scholarship unmasks the homophobia behind such mistranslations. The first word-malakos, in the Greek text-which has been translated "effeminate" or "soft", most likely refers to someone who lacks discipline or moral control. The word is used elsewhere in the New Testament but never with reference to sexuality.

The second word, arsenokoitai, occurs once each in 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy, but nowhere else in other literature of the period. It is derived from two Greek words, one meaning "males" and the other "beds", a euphemism for sexual intercourse. Other Greek words were commonly used to describe homosexual behavior but do not appear here. The larger context of 1 Corinthians 6 shows Paul extremely concerned with prostitution, so it is very possible he was referring to male prostitutes. But many experts now attempting to translate these words have reached a simple conclusion: their precise meaning is uncertain.

The rarity with which Paul discusses any form of same-sex behavior and the ambiguity in references attributed to him make it extremely unsound to conclude any sure position in the New Testament on homosexuality, especially in the context of loving, responsible relationships. Since any arguments must be made from silence, it is much more reliable to turn to great principles of the Gospel taught by Jesus Christ and the Apostles. Love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. Do not judge others, lest you be judged. The fruit of the Holy Spirit is love...against such there is no law.

One thing is abundantly clear, as Paul stated in Galatians 5:14: "the whole Law is fulfilled in one statement, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'"

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Originally posted by theoctobercountry:
Hey Doug, your post made sense to me, but I can guarantee that few others on this thread will agree with it...

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Originally posted by Braling II:
...or read it!

Has it come to pass that we're taking a whole page for one post now?

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Originally posted by patrask:
So, we find ourselves in two camps:
1. A group that takes the written work of a book, that cannot be supported by any other source as a historical document, and contains a part from the early history of the Jewish People, who needed a reshaping to be whole again as the Chosen People, after being ruined and carted off to Babylon by oppressors. Part two uses the first part as a justification for the Saviour of the second part as that which was profesized in part one, and can find no other supporting contemporary hsitory to substantiate the claims that such a Saviour ever existed. From this Book, all is to be decided for all time for the true believers and those who do not sit well by the judgements made are forever damned to Hell for their circumstances of birth.

2. those of us who have a different view and believe that the primary governing code between Human kind should be so simple that anyone can understand it and follow it and apply it to any situation: to wit, The Golden Rule.

Damnation it is, I stand with the latter group and only hope that God, Allah, YWHY, or other names for the unknown cause of my extistance, will bring peace and love to all humans and allow them to grow up and be more God-like as they do. The time for childish things has past. If we do not learn this soon, we will start to throw the H-bombs at each other in the names of our separate gods and we will all perish from this Earth. I hope that God, etc, does not let that happen.